My understanding is that DD ex only gives me a mono signal to both my 6th and 7th speakers. Also, its my understanding that PL IIx gives you stereo sound for channels 6 and 7. My question is, can I get Dolby True HD and DD along with the discrete 6th and 7th channels from PLIIx? Or am I only getting Pro Logic for my fronts, center, and surrounds when using PLIIx. Basically, I want discrete sound on my 6th and 7th speakers when using bluray and DVD connected with HDMI. Any clarification would be great. Im just confused as to whether PLIIx is representing only channels 6 and 7, or all 8 channels of 7.1...
PL IIx versus DD EX???
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Pro Logic IIx leaves the origional sound content alone whether 2 ch stereo or 5.1 or 6.1 it uses an algorithm to create the extra sound for the added back speakers from the info in the left and right side surrounds. PLIIx will work and work great with 5.1 HD sound it will keep it at 5.1 HD and add 2 back speakers and won't affect the sound quality. So you will end up with 7.1 and it sounds great.
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic_IIx.html
IIx doest really give you any back channels. Not discreete anyway. It takes an existing stereo or 5.1 source and extend it out to 6.1 or 7.1.
That said, a 6.1 Discreete DD EX or DTS ES is preferable of course.
IIx doest really give you any back channels. Not discreete anyway. It takes an existing stereo or 5.1 source and extend it out to 6.1 or 7.1.
That said, a 6.1 Discreete DD EX or DTS ES is preferable of course.
Revel M22 & C32, JBL P520WS, Revel W563 & Infinity ERS 110II, SVS SB-2000 (x2), Anthem MRX 720
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This is a matter of opinion!
Matrixed surround can still be "discrete" to all channels.
Another great feature of IIx is that you can adjust width, depth and spaciousness for your own room and preferences.
This is a matter of opinion!
Matrixed surround can still be "discrete" to all channels.
Another great feature of IIx is that you can adjust width, depth and spaciousness for your own room and preferences.
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see below
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PLIIx matrixes 4 "new" surround channels from the existing 2 in a 5.1 soundtrack. All 4 are different from one another and none of them are identical to the original 2.
see below
PLIIx matrixes 4 "new" surround channels from the existing 2 in a 5.1 soundtrack. All 4 are different from one another and none of them are identical to the original 2.
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It is unclear what you are asking, dj_james. You can apply PLIIx to any 5.1 soundtracks if that is your preference. But that won't give you truly discrete rear channels. In order to have a truly discrete channel, the channel has to be encoded as such. That said, with a 5.1 soundtrack, PLIIx does matrix different information to each of the 4 surround speaker.
You do not need nor want to apply PLIIx to a truly discrete 7.1 TrueHD (for example) soundtrack.
It is unclear what you are asking, dj_james. You can apply PLIIx to any 5.1 soundtracks if that is your preference. But that won't give you truly discrete rear channels. In order to have a truly discrete channel, the channel has to be encoded as such. That said, with a 5.1 soundtrack, PLIIx does matrix different information to each of the 4 surround speaker.
You do not need nor want to apply PLIIx to a truly discrete 7.1 TrueHD (for example) soundtrack.
ok, i think when i said "discrete" i really only meant stereo... but that being said, i now understand and have the answer to my question. Thanks guys, its good to know that PLIIx still uses DD and Dolby True HD and then matrixes the 6th and 7th. And to be truly discrete, it has to be encoded on the disc. Thanks Again!
ok, i think when i said "discrete" i really only meant stereo... but that being said, i now understand and have the answer to my question. Thanks guys, its good to know that PLIIx still uses DD and Dolby True HD and then matrixes the 6th and 7th. And to be truly discrete, it has to be encoded on the disc. Thanks Again!
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You can. In fact, that is how my 7.1 system is set up, with DPL IIX turned on.
When presented with a 2- or 5.1-channel source, DPL IIX processing is invoked.
When presented with a true 7.1 discrete source, DPL IIX processing is bypassed/ignored and a true 7.1 discrete signal is played back. You don't have to change a thing.
You can. In fact, that is how my 7.1 system is set up, with DPL IIX turned on.
When presented with a 2- or 5.1-channel source, DPL IIX processing is invoked.
When presented with a true 7.1 discrete source, DPL IIX processing is bypassed/ignored and a true 7.1 discrete signal is played back. You don't have to change a thing.
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You can? I don't know if you CAN or not. But, as you clearly point out, you ARE NOT applying PLIIx to 7.1 soundtracks. Again, you do not need, nor want, to apply PLIIx to a 7.1 soundtrack.
You can? I don't know if you CAN or not. But, as you clearly point out, you ARE NOT applying PLIIx to 7.1 soundtracks. Again, you do not need, nor want, to apply PLIIx to a 7.1 soundtrack.
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Hi,
I was wondering about this, since the manual for my prepro doesn't discuss whether preset 7.1 listening modes are ignored for 7.1 discrete sources. What AVR or prepro are you using?
Do you know whether this ignoring of true 7.1 discrete signals is something common to the Dolby ProLogic IIx specification and therefore would be implemented the same in all certified devices?
Does it work the same way for all 7.1 discrete signals, i.e. 7.1 LPCM, 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and 7.1 DTS-MA?
Do you happen to know whether other 7.1 listening modes such as THX Ultra2 Cinema, or Neural THX 7.1 also ignore 7.1 discrete signals?
Thanks.
Larry
Hi,
I was wondering about this, since the manual for my prepro doesn't discuss whether preset 7.1 listening modes are ignored for 7.1 discrete sources. What AVR or prepro are you using?
Do you know whether this ignoring of true 7.1 discrete signals is something common to the Dolby ProLogic IIx specification and therefore would be implemented the same in all certified devices?
Does it work the same way for all 7.1 discrete signals, i.e. 7.1 LPCM, 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and 7.1 DTS-MA?
Do you happen to know whether other 7.1 listening modes such as THX Ultra2 Cinema, or Neural THX 7.1 also ignore 7.1 discrete signals?
Thanks.
Larry
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It is probably going to vary from AVR to AVR. Most are going to have some sort of AUTO function so that they will apply the correct processing to whatever they are sent. If you always apply PLIIx to 5.1 material, then most AVRs will 'remember' this. There may be some variation in the way that bitstreamed material is treated versus LPCM. But when you must choose the exact type of processing, most AVRs will 'remember' what you have chosen and will apply that same processing the next time that format is encountered.
It is probably going to vary from AVR to AVR. Most are going to have some sort of AUTO function so that they will apply the correct processing to whatever they are sent. If you always apply PLIIx to 5.1 material, then most AVRs will 'remember' this. There may be some variation in the way that bitstreamed material is treated versus LPCM. But when you must choose the exact type of processing, most AVRs will 'remember' what you have chosen and will apply that same processing the next time that format is encountered.
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Hi,
Thanks for the response.
My Onkyo prepro permits me to manually preset a listening mode to each source format, and it differentiates between lossless and lossy formats for Dolby and DTS, but it doesn't differentiate between 5.1 and 7.1 lossless formats.
Since I have been unsure of the processing, up until now I opted to set all Dolby TrueHD sources to Dolby ProLogic IIx and all DTS-MA to DTS-MA. My reasoning was that there are only about six 7.1 Dolby TrueHD titles out of a total of more than 400 TrueHD titles. Therefore, in the vast majority of cases (99.5% to be exact) the ProLogic IIx processing would be matrixing the rear channels on a 5.1 discrete source and my uncertainty regarding how ProLogic IIx deals with 7.1 discrete would only apply to a mere 1.5% of the total TrueHD population.
With DTS-MA there are 77 7.1 discrete titles out of a total of more than 500 DTS-MA titles. In this case my uncertainty regarding the handling of 7.1 discrete sources applied a much larger percentage, 15% of the population, so I opted to set the listening mode preset to DTS-MA to avoid the chance of converting a 7.1 discrete source into 7.1 matrixed on playback.
Since bluesky636 has alerted us to the likelihood of ProLogic IIx ignoring 7.1 discrete sources, it's worth my effort to experiment with my 7.1 titles to see what happens with my particular prepro when I preset a 7.1 discrete source to ProLogic IIx, or the other 7.1 listening modes available.
Currently, I only have one 7.1 LPCM title and five 7.1 DTS-MA titles. I'll have to purchase some 7.1 TrueHD titles such as one of the Star Trek movies to experiment with all three lossless formats.
Larry
Hi,
Thanks for the response.
My Onkyo prepro permits me to manually preset a listening mode to each source format, and it differentiates between lossless and lossy formats for Dolby and DTS, but it doesn't differentiate between 5.1 and 7.1 lossless formats.
Since I have been unsure of the processing, up until now I opted to set all Dolby TrueHD sources to Dolby ProLogic IIx and all DTS-MA to DTS-MA. My reasoning was that there are only about six 7.1 Dolby TrueHD titles out of a total of more than 400 TrueHD titles. Therefore, in the vast majority of cases (99.5% to be exact) the ProLogic IIx processing would be matrixing the rear channels on a 5.1 discrete source and my uncertainty regarding how ProLogic IIx deals with 7.1 discrete would only apply to a mere 1.5% of the total TrueHD population.
With DTS-MA there are 77 7.1 discrete titles out of a total of more than 500 DTS-MA titles. In this case my uncertainty regarding the handling of 7.1 discrete sources applied a much larger percentage, 15% of the population, so I opted to set the listening mode preset to DTS-MA to avoid the chance of converting a 7.1 discrete source into 7.1 matrixed on playback.
Since bluesky636 has alerted us to the likelihood of ProLogic IIx ignoring 7.1 discrete sources, it's worth my effort to experiment with my 7.1 titles to see what happens with my particular prepro when I preset a 7.1 discrete source to ProLogic IIx, or the other 7.1 listening modes available.
Currently, I only have one 7.1 LPCM title and five 7.1 DTS-MA titles. I'll have to purchase some 7.1 TrueHD titles such as one of the Star Trek movies to experiment with all three lossless formats.
Larry
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I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't differentiate between 5.1 and 7.1 lossless formats". It will apply the correct processing to whatever it encounters. If you have set it up to apply PLIIx to 5.1 sources, it should do that. You may have to use PLIIx with each format, initially, so that it 'remembers' how you wish to post-process such material.
I don't really understand. Even if you set it up to apply PLIIx to TrueHD, it has to apply TrueHD, first, prior to applying PLIIx. Likewise, if you set it to apply PLIIx to DTS-MA material, it will have to apply DTS-MA, first, then PLIIx. Based upon what you are saying, since you are simply using DTS-MA processing alone, without PLIIx, for DTS-MA material, you are not getting 7.1 channel sound with 5.1 DTS-MA sources. Is this correct?
I suspect that a PLIIx setting is ignored for any discrete 7.1 material. I am not even sure that PLIIx can be applied to something that is already 7.1.
Since you have some 7.1 DTS-MA titles, as well as (I assume) several 5.1 lossless titles in both formats, you should be able to experiment and answer these questions, no?
I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't differentiate between 5.1 and 7.1 lossless formats". It will apply the correct processing to whatever it encounters. If you have set it up to apply PLIIx to 5.1 sources, it should do that. You may have to use PLIIx with each format, initially, so that it 'remembers' how you wish to post-process such material.
I don't really understand. Even if you set it up to apply PLIIx to TrueHD, it has to apply TrueHD, first, prior to applying PLIIx. Likewise, if you set it to apply PLIIx to DTS-MA material, it will have to apply DTS-MA, first, then PLIIx. Based upon what you are saying, since you are simply using DTS-MA processing alone, without PLIIx, for DTS-MA material, you are not getting 7.1 channel sound with 5.1 DTS-MA sources. Is this correct?
I suspect that a PLIIx setting is ignored for any discrete 7.1 material. I am not even sure that PLIIx can be applied to something that is already 7.1.
Since you have some 7.1 DTS-MA titles, as well as (I assume) several 5.1 lossless titles in both formats, you should be able to experiment and answer these questions, no?
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Hi,
I did a quick experiment. It appears you are correct, no 7.1 listening mode, including PLIIx, is available when my prepro senses a 7.1 DTS-MA source. This is true regardless of how the preset listening modes are set. So even though I set all DTS-MA sources to play in PLIIx listening mode, when a 7.1 DTS-MA source is sensed by my prepro it displays 7.1 DTS Master Audio and ignores the PLIIx preset listening mode.
When playing a bitstreamed 5.1 DTS-MA source the PLIIx listening mode was correctly invoked.
Unfortunately my Panasonic DMP-BD55 Blu-ray player has an undefeatable processing technique that it makes it difficult to test 5.1 DTS sources when the player is set to send PCM signals.
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When the player senses 5.1 DTS PCM sources, it duplicates the side surrounds into the surround back channels. So when I experimented with 5.1 DTS sources, and sent them via PCM to my prepro, it always appeared that the source was 7.1 discrete.
Larry
Hi,
I did a quick experiment. It appears you are correct, no 7.1 listening mode, including PLIIx, is available when my prepro senses a 7.1 DTS-MA source. This is true regardless of how the preset listening modes are set. So even though I set all DTS-MA sources to play in PLIIx listening mode, when a 7.1 DTS-MA source is sensed by my prepro it displays 7.1 DTS Master Audio and ignores the PLIIx preset listening mode.
When playing a bitstreamed 5.1 DTS-MA source the PLIIx listening mode was correctly invoked.
Unfortunately my Panasonic DMP-BD55 Blu-ray player has an undefeatable processing technique that it makes it difficult to test 5.1 DTS sources when the player is set to send PCM signals.
Larry
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Hi Larry/Siv.
This appeared to be the best post to respond to.
I have an Onkyo TX-SR706 and Panasonic DMP-BD35. My setup is as follows:
The BD35 is set to "Bitstream." I like to see the correct DD and DTS lights on the 706 front panel.
In teh 706, ALL DD and DTS sources are set to a listening mode of DPLIIX and THX Cinema.
The front panel of the 706 has a neat display of 8 little boxes that represent the active speakers in a system. If the box has a name in it (FR, C, FL, etc.) that indicates that the speaker is playing a discrete signal. If the box is empty, it indicates the speaker is playing a matrixed signal.
For a discrete 5.1 source WITHOUT DPLIIX applied, only six boxes show names. The other two boxes do not appear.
For a discrete 5.1 source WITH DPLIIX, six boxes will appear with names and the other two will appear as empty boxes. The front panel will display the proper "flavor" of DD/DTS (lossy or lossless) and "PLIIX" will be displayed.
Now, without making any changes, when you feed a discrete 7.1 channel source to the 706 (either bitstream or pcm), magic happens.
ALL eight boxes will show speaker names AND the "PLIIX" indicator will NOT be lit. The propor "flavor" of DD or DTS will also be displayed.
Now, there are a couple of quirks in the 706. If DD EX is set to "Auto," it will override the DPLIIX processing and play a single, mono back surround. If it is set to "Manual," it will not, and DPLIIX processing takes precidence. HOWEVER, in the 706, there is no equivalent for DTS of an "Auto"/"Manual" selection. DTS ES will ALWAYS override DPLIIX.
I only have a few DTS HD-MA 7.1 BDs. I have no 7.1 PCM or Dolby True-HD BDs. Interestingly, I have at least one DTS HD-MA BD that is recorded with discrete ES for 6.1 channels. I forget which one it is, though.
![]()
Hope all this clears things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin /forum/post/16915404
Hi,
I did a quick experiment. It appears you are correct, no 7.1 listening mode, including PLIIx, is available when my prepro senses a 7.1 DTS-MA source. This is true regardless of how the preset listening modes are set. So even though I set all DTS-MA sources to play in PLIIx listening mode, when a 7.1 DTS-MA source is sensed by my prepro it displays 7.1 DTS Master Audio and ignores the PLIIx preset listening mode.
When playing a bitstreamed 5.1 DTS-MA source the PLIIx listening mode was correctly invoked.
Unfortunately my Panasonic DMP-BD55 Blu-ray player has an undefeatable processing technique that it makes it difficult to test 5.1 DTS sources when the player is set to send PCM signals.When the player senses 5.1 DTS PCM sources, it duplicates the side surrounds into the surround back channels. So when I experimented with 5.1 DTS sources, and sent them via PCM to my prepro, it always appeared that the source was 7.1 discrete.![]()
Larry
Hi Larry/Siv.
This appeared to be the best post to respond to.
I have an Onkyo TX-SR706 and Panasonic DMP-BD35. My setup is as follows:
The BD35 is set to "Bitstream." I like to see the correct DD and DTS lights on the 706 front panel.
In teh 706, ALL DD and DTS sources are set to a listening mode of DPLIIX and THX Cinema.
The front panel of the 706 has a neat display of 8 little boxes that represent the active speakers in a system. If the box has a name in it (FR, C, FL, etc.) that indicates that the speaker is playing a discrete signal. If the box is empty, it indicates the speaker is playing a matrixed signal.
For a discrete 5.1 source WITHOUT DPLIIX applied, only six boxes show names. The other two boxes do not appear.
For a discrete 5.1 source WITH DPLIIX, six boxes will appear with names and the other two will appear as empty boxes. The front panel will display the proper "flavor" of DD/DTS (lossy or lossless) and "PLIIX" will be displayed.
Now, without making any changes, when you feed a discrete 7.1 channel source to the 706 (either bitstream or pcm), magic happens.
ALL eight boxes will show speaker names AND the "PLIIX" indicator will NOT be lit. The propor "flavor" of DD or DTS will also be displayed.
Now, there are a couple of quirks in the 706. If DD EX is set to "Auto," it will override the DPLIIX processing and play a single, mono back surround. If it is set to "Manual," it will not, and DPLIIX processing takes precidence. HOWEVER, in the 706, there is no equivalent for DTS of an "Auto"/"Manual" selection. DTS ES will ALWAYS override DPLIIX.
I only have a few DTS HD-MA 7.1 BDs. I have no 7.1 PCM or Dolby True-HD BDs. Interestingly, I have at least one DTS HD-MA BD that is recorded with discrete ES for 6.1 channels. I forget which one it is, though.
Hope all this clears things up.
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They were never murky.
![]()
They were never murky.
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If the AVR is receiving multichannel pcm, the source was already pcm, or the native bitstream has already been decoded by the BD player.
If the AVR is receiving multichannel pcm, the source was already pcm, or the native bitstream has already been decoded by the BD player.
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It's been decoded but it hasn't been processed. Different AVRs can apply different amounts of processing to MPCM. Some can't even apply PLIIx to 5.1 MPCM. Others can apply whatever DSP you want to apply to MPCM. If your AVR can't apply PLIIx to 5.1 MPCM, your player may be able to. Or not.
It's been decoded but it hasn't been processed. Different AVRs can apply different amounts of processing to MPCM. Some can't even apply PLIIx to 5.1 MPCM. Others can apply whatever DSP you want to apply to MPCM. If your AVR can't apply PLIIx to 5.1 MPCM, your player may be able to. Or not.
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