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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone seen an article about an alternative method of setting up a home theater.


I recently read where someone moved the rear ceiling speakers to the front wall above their screen and angled them down to improve the surround effect.


I want to try it but I lost track of the article.


Any help would be appreciated!


Also when mounting horizontal speakers, do the tweeters go on the left or right side looking straight at the speaker?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17022323


Has anyone seen an article about an alternative method of setting up a home theater.


I recently read where someone moved the rear ceiling speakers to the front wall above their screen and angled them down to improve the surround effect.

This can only reduce and corrupt the 'surround' effect but it is possible that some people will like it.

Quote:
Also when mounting horizontal speakers, do the tweeters go on the left or right side looking straight at the speaker?

With a poorly designed horizontal speaker like that, the only advice is to have the left and right speakers mounted symmetrically. That means, tweeters on the outside on both or on the inside on both. If you are referring to a center speaker, it may not matter. All tweeters should be above or below the midrange driver, not next to it.
 

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That's funny that this topic was brought up. Sorry for the off-topic post, but this kind of relates...


I just started schooling for audio production and engineering. Today one student asked the instructor what the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 was. Granted, this instructor mainly deals with live sound and Pro Tools. But he was very confident in his answer, which he said without hesitation:


"5.1 has a left, center, right, two surrounds, and an lfe channel. 7.1 has left, left-center, center, right-center, right, two surrounds and an lfe channel."


I cried a little inside as I sat and listened. This kind of stuff happens way too much in my classes. Sometimes I raise my hand and say something in the form of a question to correct the response, so I don't seem like a know-it-all. But I am surprised by how much incorrect "knowledge" is fed to these students
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderMoser /forum/post/17029260


That's funny that this topic was brought up. Sorry for the off-topic post, but this kind of relates...


I just started schooling for audio production and engineering. Today one student asked the instructor what the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 was. Granted, this instructor mainly deals with live sound and Pro Tools. But he was very confident in his answer, which he said without hesitation:


"5.1 has a left, center, right, two surrounds, and an lfe channel. 7.1 has left, left-center, center, right-center, right, two surrounds and an lfe channel."


I cried a little inside as I sat and listened. This kind of stuff happens way too much in my classes. Sometimes I raise my hand and say something in the form of a question to correct the response, so I don't seem like a know-it-all. But I am surprised by how much incorrect "knowledge" is fed to these students

Sigh. And all the graduates will be experts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/17022500


This can only reduce and corrupt the 'surround' effect but it is possible that some people will like it.


With a poorly designed horizontal speaker like that, the only advice is to have the left and right speakers mounted symmetrically. That means, tweeters on the outside on both or on the inside on both. If you are referring to a center speaker, it may not matter. All tweeters should be above or below the midrange driver, not next to it.

Your explanation sounds logical.


I did hear about this article written by a supposedly knowledgeable person and I just wanted to read it.


Does anyone remember the article or author?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17030306


Your explanation sounds logical.


I did hear about this article written by a supposedly knowledgeable person and I just wanted to read it.


Does anyone remember the article or author?

If you find it, post a link. The only thing I can think of is the mdg 2+2+2 system:
http://www.mdg.de/frame2e.htm
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderMoser /forum/post/17029260


"5.1 has a left, center, right, two surrounds, and an lfe channel. 7.1 has left, left-center, center, right-center, right, two surrounds and an lfe channel."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/17029325


Sigh. And all the graduates will be experts.

Well, maybe the instructor just read something about Audyssey DSX - the 5.1 plus 2 front wide speaker version.
 

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I have a Yamaha AVR with presence speakers mounted on the front wall. They go unused because I find that the effect in any mode robs the audio of clarity. Reading about all of these new height settings with DSX and PLIIz, I became curious about speakers on the front wall and hooked them to the rear surround terminals just to see what the effect would be. I can only describe the sound field as an absolute muddled mess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpco /forum/post/17030718


I have a Yamaha AVR with presence speakers mounted on the front wall. They go unused because I find that the effect in any mode robs the audio of clarity. Reading about all of these new height settings with DSX and PLIIz, I became curious about speakers on the front wall and hooked them to the rear surround terminals just to see what the effect would be. I can only describe the sound field as an absolute muddled mess.

Thanks,


That's what I was talking about and I still can't find anything when I searched.


Do you remember where you read this?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17031037


Thanks,


That's what I was talking about..............

Presence channels and surround channels are two COMPLETELY different things. Front-mounted presence speakers require an AVR that specifically processes and produces the presence channel information. You can't just hang the speakers connected to the rear (or side) surround channels on the front wall and call them presence speakers. Many of the AVRs that are capable of providing presence channel info (and that may only be Yamahas) allow reassignment of a pair of surround channels to presence channel duty and that, of course, results in entirely different material being sent to the presence channels than would otherwise be sent there if the channels were left as surround channels.


If you are asking if you can just slap the surround channel speakers on the front wall and get a reasonable result, I think you probably know the answer. Why in the world would you want something that was intended to sound like it was behind you coming from the front?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderMoser /forum/post/17029260


. . . "7.1 has left, left-center, center, right-center, right, two surrounds and an lfe channel" . . .

This is the Sony SDDS 8 Channel Theater layout -- which I think has been in use for at least a decade.

As for 'home theater': HDMI specs (as of EIA/CEA-861-B) included Audio InfoFrame support for the Front-Left-Center/Front-Right-Center pair, plus the standard 5.1 speakers, as a legitimate 7.1 layout on par with the "7.1 Standard" layout. I'd guess that at one time Sony anticipated selling BDs authored in the 7.1 SDDS layout, and receivers that would play them back on a native speaker configuration. Once something gets into the specs, does it ever get removed...?


And the Left-Center/Right-Center speaker pair is also present in the (8 speaker version of the) DCI Digital Cinema System Specification [although I don't see any sign of home media or players for that scheme], and in the 22.2 audio channel Super Hi-Vision (SHV) broadcast tv system "planned" to replace HDTV, in some countries, sometime after 2020. [But the good news is that door, window, and desk locations, plus ceiling height limit future expansion of my home office system to 16.x channels! . . . Of course, I would probably also need to install air conditioning in that event!
]
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/17033106


True but he has not (yet) won the argument.

Agreed.


FWIW, my 7.1 setup is "standard." Probably always will be. It was tough enough getting permission from SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED to add two more speakers to the room.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderMoser /forum/post/17029260


That's funny that this topic was brought up. Sorry for the off-topic post, but this kind of relates...


I just started schooling for audio production and engineering. Today one student asked the instructor what the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 was. Granted, this instructor mainly deals with live sound and Pro Tools. But he was very confident in his answer, which he said without hesitation:


"5.1 has a left, center, right, two surrounds, and an lfe channel. 7.1 has left, left-center, center, right-center, right, two surrounds and an lfe channel."


I cried a little inside as I sat and listened. This kind of stuff happens way too much in my classes. Sometimes I raise my hand and say something in the form of a question to correct the response, so I don't seem like a know-it-all. But I am surprised by how much incorrect "knowledge" is fed to these students

I could never resist. Instructors hated me. Justice finally reigned. I had petitioned for equivalent experience for half a dozen electronic circuits classes. A board member complained I had one credit not enough in basic AC. Another board member replied that if the first board member made me take a basic AC class, I would be in his, and that he had better bone up because it would be hell. I got my degree. You see, my company hired most of every graduating class and I would have to train them for real. I did not like reteaching wrong physics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
To get the 9.1 sound, could one use a processor with both balanced and


unbalanced amp outputs and use the same rear surround preamp out for 4 speakers, 2 height and 2 rear surround?


Another words, the balanced preamp out for the rear surrounds could go to the amp in the system and then to the rear surround speakers


the RCA jack preamp out for the rear surround speakers could go to another amplifier and then to the height speakers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17042744


To get the 9.1 sound, could one use a processor with both balanced and


unbalanced amp outputs and use the same rear surround preamp out for 4 speakers, 2 height and 2 rear surround?


Another words, the balanced preamp out for the rear surrounds could go to the amp in the system and then to the rear surround speakers


the RCA jack preamp out for the rear surround speakers could go to another amplifier and then to the height speakers.

There's no reason you need both balanced and unbalanced outputs to do what you're talking about. Simply split the unbalanced output with a y-splitter. The output impedance is high enough that it won't be an issue.


But having 4 speakers in the back without any additional processing won't do anything for you except give an approximately 3 db boost of rear surround info. Your ears aren't very good at distinguishing height cues to the rear. If anything you'll just get bad comb filtering issues.
 

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What Xander Moser said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17042744


To get the 9.1 sound................

There is no such thing as "9.1 sound". Not yet, anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by i30krab /forum/post/17042744


.................for 4 speakers, 2 height and 2 rear surround?

Just because you mount 2 speakers higher doesn't make them "height" speakers. What you'd have in this instance is 4 rear surround speakers, 2 of which are mounted higher than the other 2. Which, as pointed out, could result in some unwanted acoustic anomalies.




What is it you are trying to do? More does not necessarily equal better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/17049946


What Xander Moser said.



There is no such thing as "9.1 sound". Not yet, anyway.




Just because you mount 2 speakers higher doesn't make them "height" speakers. What you'd have in this instance is 4 rear surround speakers, 2 of which are mounted higher than the other 2. Which, as pointed out, could result in some unwanted acoustic anomalies.




What is it you are trying to do? More does not necessarily equal better.

Actually I'm just experimenting with my system! Back in the 70's and 80's I did the same with the the old 4 channel matrix sound.


I'll put the extra surround speakers up front high over the L & R mains and see how they sound. Also I can move them around and see if this makes any difference.


Considering I have a smaller 12' X 14' dedicated room I have a feeling they'll sound either good or terrible.

.
 
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