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I am going to buy a new HDTV this year. At first I was set on the Smasung LN46a650, but now I am leaning towards the PN50a650. I watch White Sox baseball OTA HD, DVD's eventually Blu Rays, and a lot of shows on CBS. CBS and the Sox games will have some sort of constant logo or call letters. I am nervous about burn-in. When people say IR and are talking about burn in, is this Infrared? Or does this IR mean something else. I have read this forum about this pretty frequently and have only seen the letters IR, but noone has given a definition.


Also, I prefer to watch a show in the intended aspect ratio. 4:3 I would watch with the black bars on the sides. I can't stand the geometric distortion with it horizontally expanded or zoomed and missing out on that part of the show. Even DVD's or Blu Ray's will have the black bars on the top and bottom. Is this something of great concern? I downloaded some instruction manuals from Samsung and they warn about the black bars.


I am a few months away from my purchase, but I would like to know just how concerned I should be.


Thanx,


shotgunn
 

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To sum up the rather overwhelming Burn-In thread before this gets moved and buried over there:


"IR" is short for Image Retention. People who are shocked when they see a logo or gaming artifact remaining visible hours later tend to refer to it as "Burn-In." Usually it goes away, but not always. (If it does go away, then it's called "IR.")


It doesn't occur as often with plasmas as it used to, but it still continues to be reported occasionally with all brands of plasmas. Despite a lot of expert pontification here, no one seems to know just why it happens on some units and not on others (even of the same manufacturer).


What to do? If you love the plasma look, then buy it from a vendor that permits a convenient 30-day return. (Costco and Sears come to mind.) Start using it immediately after purchase so you'll know what you're getting, and by the third week you should know if you're OK with it or if it's keeping you awake at night. If you're still worried, then take it back and get something else (maybe an LCD?).
 

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OP, your usage is normal and you will be fine. Will you get some IR? Maybe, maybe not. IF you get some it washes away, often immediately but occasionally longer.


You will not get burn-in. Entirely different matter, not caused by your usage. Also very very rare.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Image Retention, duh!!! I have heard of that. I can't believe I didn't put that together. Thanx for the quick responses.


When I am ready I will probably buy it from BB, and return if necessary.


Thanx,


shotgunn
 

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Primetime: Not sure why your last post needed to be so sarcastic. Not exactly helpful. In your first post, you implied burn-in is a form of IR. Its not. IR can be quite long lasting, but burn-in is physical damage to the display caused by an image being etched (burned) into the glass, or uneven wear of the phosphors. Both take many, many hours.


Logos do not cause uneven wear, but black bars could over many hundreds hours of usage. This would appear as a general uniformity issue with a brighter area of the screen, much like an uneven backlight on an lcd panel. And of course a logo cannot get etched into the glass unless it was paused on a channel for many days, which would stop the refreshing of pixels from commercials, changing the channel etc.


Lots of people come on this forum claiming they have 'burn-in' when they clearly have IR. In some cases its not even that stubborn. I still haven't read of any documented true burn-in on a recent plasma in the last couple years. IR that takes time to go away, even many many hours, is not burn-in.


So, the OP will not get burn-in. There is no way regular network logos can cause real burn-in, period (unless, theoretically, some serious abuse took place). If they did, the proof would be all over this forum.


It needs to be stressed that burn-in is damage to the panel. People don't need to test their set to see if it will get this damage and then return it if they do. Its not a realistic test.


Testing for IR is another matter, but ultimately you should never go looking for it as it defeats the whole point. Don't look for problems. I say the OP should forget this whole conversation. If he gets bothersome IR or any other problem that bothers him, then like anyone else he should look into returning it, but this is an uncommon thing.
 

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in a few more years, people will read a thread about IR and scratch their heads wondering when plasma ever had ir issues. We just haven't had anough years to put the olden day plasmas out of our minds. Fokelore and Legend will always be part of the "i will never buy a plasma mystic" Actually one has to consider, if the plasma technology improves as much as it did in the last 3 years by the same margin in the next 3 years, oled might be in trouble.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath /forum/post/15420200


in a few more years, people will read a thread about IR and scratch their heads wondering when plasma ever had ir issues. We just haven't had anough years to put the olden day plasmas out of our minds. Fokelore and Legend will always be part of the "i will never buy a plasma mystic" Actually one has to consider, if the plasma technology improves as much as it did in the last 3 years by the same margin in the next 3 years, oled might be in trouble.

Next time you're in LA, stop by the Circuit City in Culver City and check out a Samsung plasma on the wall with severe burn in of a BR menu on 70% of the screen....i say burn in because it's been sitting there a month with no change. Not trying to be an ahole but to include "olden days", "folklore" and "legend" in your post, well, it warranted a response. In fact, i invite anyone who lives near LAX to come see it. Or call the store and verify it. I say this only to remind people that new plasmas have not eliminated the possibilty and to take the recommended precautions, otherwise, newbies will have a false sense of security after unloading $4000 from their bank account.
 

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Hang on though.


Is it practicle to think anyone in their right mind would leave a br menu up on their screen for that long. Perhaps it is a prop to sell lcds? Can you tell if it is burnin, if they never play material that would get rid of image retention?


Look for people on this page who have burnin on a set made in 2008...............not gonna happen. This is the real deal, people watching content everyday on their 4k dollar tv...and never getting burnin. You will find the odd panic attack, only to find that there 5 hours of menu when falling asleep went away after a few hours of regular viewing.


i'd say that sammy is a prop....anyone trying to sell it at the store? or do they just refer to it when shoving a lcd with more margin down people throat.


I don't have a cheapy 1k plasma, but I can verify in the threads I have been viewing for 6 months...burnin is not an issue anymore.


edit..I do agree that some precautions should be taken...abuse is rediculous. But gaming, viewing, regular use it is a non issue. Don't forget some sets have smart technology that prevent an image from being on freeze for more than 3 mins, or have timers that turn the set off if no inputs are made for 3 hours, or dim the menu, or well there are lots of countermeasures for the forgetfull types.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath /forum/post/15420200


in a few more years, people will read a thread about IR and scratch their heads wondering when plasma ever had ir issues.

Perhaps. Since we seem to be into speculation here, I should point out that


(1) The OP is talking about the situation now, not a few years from now; and


(2) In a few years, people may be scratching their heads wondering why, with the state-of-the-LCD art, anyone would have ever bought a plasma in the first place.
 

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1) the in a few years is for the shady past to finally fade...the issue is currently a non issue. It will take a few more years of non issue to convice the masses...just like the old lcd fears that are non issues today. Just takes time.


2) yes agreed possible. If history has a say though...not likely.
 

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The best way to prevent BI & uneven phosphor wear from occurring with any PDP is to avoid using the "vivid" mode picture setting and refrain from displaying black bars/static images for the first few hundred hours of operation then follow Pioneer's viewing recommendations thereafter:


"The recommended duration for showing the action video is three times as long as the game or PC image was on the screen.


View full-motion video in WIDE or FULL screen after playing content with side, top, or bottom masking (black bars). Extensive viewing of masked content without this recovery process can cause uneven wear on the plasma cells."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HID

I would like to thank everyone for their info. My plasma comes tomorrow I read every post printed out all the settings that people have shared. My question is do I wait a 100 hrs. before using the settings? I know about the black bars and logos. Thanks in advance.


The general advice for customers who are worred about so-called image retention on a plasma HDTV is to display full screen content, most of the time. It seems likely that image retention is rare and that true burn-in is almost non -existant on current model plasmas. If you want to be very conservative on breaking in your plasma - stick to the THX mode although, in my view, the modified THX settings are only a bit brighter than the stock settings and I can't believe they will hurt your TV. Frankly I don't believe the custom settings will hurt your TV either - see below.


There is not a lot of hard core data out there to support any opinion other than the problem of permanent burn-in is VERY rare, if not, non-existent!!. While it is wise to be conservative - consider how many hundreds of thousands of these plasmas are sold every year and how few customers ever have any image retention problems let alone permanant burn-in.


I was concerned about this and looked for hard core research. Here is what I found:


Here is a post from an industry group that has performed actual testing: http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/results/image.php


I'd encourage everyone to view the full test results.


Note their conclusion (for those that don't want to read the full study):



Quote:

Image burn-in (differential phosphor aging) should not be a problem for any plasma TV that is operated in a standard or daytime picture mode, viewing a normal mix of video content. For video gaming, select a picture setting that reduces image brightness and contrast accordingly, as recommended by the owner's manual.


Here is Samsung's view on burn in. (note:Samsung says from 2007 on they don't believe any break-in is needed)

http://samsungplasmatvfaq.com/index....mage_retention


Finally here is Panasonic's white paper on image retention:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...ear_Choice.pdf


I encourage everyone to read the entire paper but for those that don't wish to here is some of it:




Quote:

The lifespan of first-generation Plasma TV panels was compromised by an effect known as burn-in or image retention, which occurred when the panel's phosphors aged unevenly because static images (like sidebars and news tickers) were left on the screen for extended periods of time. Image retention can occur with any type of display device, including LCDs, but was especially evident in early Plasmas. Newer Plasma designs radically minimize the likelihood of permanent image retention through improved xenon and neon mixtures and a more efficient cell design that allows for more light with less degradation in the phosphors. The less aging a phosphor exhibits, the less likely it is for permanent image retention to occur. Short-term image retention, or ghosting, is a related concern. This happens when a cell temporarily remembers the state it's been left in, creating a ghost of the image on the screen. This effect is not permanent; Several recent studies have shown that ghosting will fade on its own and that today's Plasma panels are much less susceptible to this effect than earlier panels.


In my view ANY concern about burn-in or image retention is greatly exaggerated. But like everyone else who has spent thousands of dollars on a new HDTV I was conservative (paranoid?) for the first 100 hours - viewing mostly full screen content yet I often used my custom settings which were brighter than THX. Using these Custom settings didn't produce any problems!


I think these break-in DVDs are a money maker for the companies that sell them (and probably don't do any harm). However I doubt they are needed or have any practical value.


Daarrid

My Follow up to this:

Quote:
Daarrid, you hit the nail on the head: "I think these break-in DVDs are a money maker for the companies that sell them (and probably don't do any harm). However I doubt they are needed or have any practical value."


I've got a couple panasonic panels (one 3 years old) and I've come home to movie trailers that have sat idle all day bec(kids) and there's absolutely ZERO burn-in. There may be IR (Image retention) for a few seconds but then it's gone.


Anyone getting one of these panels, enjoy the thing and don't waste your money on a break in DVD. If your concerned and would rather error on the side of caution, watch television/dvd's in full screen (avoid the black bars) and leave it in THX or Standard Setting. Personally, I don't think you even have to avoid bars (from experience) but if your sanity hangs in the balance suit yourself.


Daarrid, thanks for passing along good info. If anyone's been hesitant to pull the trigger because of IR or Burn In, it should be the least of your worry's. Better chance of getting bed sores from not leaving the sofa ;-)

In short, unless you abuse the panel by setting it on "vivid" picture mode and leaving it on a static image for weeks on end, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. That afformentioned unit at some bankrupt circuit city in LA is a plant. Their probably trying to unload their LCD inventory before shutting doors.


I watch sports and other shows with tickers or static images ALL THE TIME and have ZERO problems.
 

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I notice IR quite a bit. Not when switching channels or changing sources. I notice it when I do a white wash when I know a static image has been there for 15 minutes. I do a quick check and I notice the IR considerably. Even after 5 minutes, the image isn't completely gone which is rather confusing to me since some of you say that after a few seconds the IR is no more. What's even more confusing is how I get IR in the first place if I always have "Orbiter" setting on which should eliminate this problem, unless my perception of "orbiter" and expectancy level is beyond it's means.


I've had this plasma (LG 60PG60) for about 5 days now, don't have it on vivid, and find myself very much concerned about this. I come from owning a Samsung DLP and as you all know, this problem is not one I've experienced before.


Now...this is not to say that the same IR image is present 2 days later or anything. It does go away by the next day but I worry as to whether plasma is more susceptible to heavy IR than I'd hoped.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunndunn /forum/post/15410672


I am going to buy a new HDTV this year. At first I was set on the Smasung LN46a650, but now I am leaning towards the PN50a650. I watch White Sox baseball OTA HD, DVD's eventually Blu Rays, and a lot of shows on CBS. CBS and the Sox games will have some sort of constant logo or call letters. I am nervous about burn-in. When people say IR and are talking about burn in, is this Infrared? Or does this IR mean something else. I have read this forum about this pretty frequently and have only seen the letters IR, but noone has given a definition.


Also, I prefer to watch a show in the intended aspect ratio. 4:3 I would watch with the black bars on the sides. I can't stand the geometric distortion with it horizontally expanded or zoomed and missing out on that part of the show. Even DVD's or Blu Ray's will have the black bars on the top and bottom. Is this something of great concern? I downloaded some instruction manuals from Samsung and they warn about the black bars.


I am a few months away from my purchase, but I would like to know just how concerned I should be.


Thanx,


shotgunn


Samsung has always been one of the worst Plasma Panels when it comes it I.R. and burn in. Other sets may be a better choice for you if your going to be watching alot of content with wide screen aspect ratio. Look to Panny and Pioneer, both do a far better job than Samsung in this area.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Rafsta /forum/post/15422714


I notice IR quite a bit. Not when switching channels or changing sources. I notice it when I do a white wash when I know a static image has been there for 15 minutes. I do a quick check and I notice the IR considerably. Even after 5 minutes, the image isn't completely gone which is rather confusing to me since some of you say that after a few seconds the IR is no more. What's even more confusing is how I get IR in the first place if I always have "Orbiter" setting on which should eliminate this problem, unless my perception of "orbiter" and expectancy level is beyond it's means.


I've had this plasma (LG 60PG60) for about 5 days now, don't have it on vivid, and find myself very much concerned about this. I come from owning a Samsung DLP and as you all know, this problem is not one I've experienced before.


Now...this is not to say that the same IR image is present 2 days later or anything. It does go away by the next day but I worry as to whether plasma is more susceptible to heavy IR than I'd hoped.

Its a 5 day old set. New sets have issues with IR....if you keep up the abuse of 15 minute still images on a brand new set it may become burnin, but i doubt it would be more than ir.


Just put the thing on full screen and let it run whatever content you want while you sleep. 50 hours will get most of the fragile period over with. Remember too, just because it is fragile doesn't mean burn in. the image did go away right.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son /forum/post/15422767


^^ .. you need more time on your 'new' set; at least 400hrs for the phosphors to settle in, then IR should be less prevelent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath /forum/post/15422893


Its a 5 day old set. New sets have issues with IR....if you keep up the abuse of 15 minute still images on a brand new set it may become burnin, but i doubt it would be more than ir.


Just put the thing on full screen and let it run whatever content you want while you sleep. 50 hours will get most of the fragile period over with. Remember too, just because it is fragile doesn't mean burn in. the image did go away right.

Good to hear. I figured something like this would be neccessary. 400 hrs sounds pretty steep but if it's needed than no problem. There's a channel or two that don't have a station image that's static. I could leave it there and on full screen to accomplish the break-in.


Thanks for your input. I wasn't looking to bash the technology but merely looking to get some clarification on the matter. Thanks again.
 
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