[chopin952]

Hello folks. I'm typically an LCD person, but I'm venturing outside of the LCD cave to learn more about what's out there.


I recently visited a local high-end store and was very impressed with the 151FD and 111FD Kuros. What really caught my eye aside from the black levels is the sharpness of these displays. It almost seems like it's double or quadruple the resolution of LCDs. Does this apply to all plasmas? What allows plasma or the Kuro to exhibit such a sharp image? I've even witnessed this on a 5020FD at BB with split component source going to dozens of other TVs.


And one more question. I immediately notice the strobing/flickering of plasma on low end displays. However, the Kuros don't seem to suffer from it as much. Is this a Pioneer trade secret? Does it flicker at a faster rate? Do you think plasma will ever be improved enough to show a solid image without this flickering?


Aside from babying/careful pattern of use, and flickering, plasma seems like the perfect medium for movie watching.


Thanks for your time.

 

[KMFDMvsEnya]

LCD pixels take far longer to change than plasma pixels and because of this plasma will look sharper due to no pixel blur. Plus plasma, especially Pioneer, provides superior native contrast and color quality than LCDs, which relies on dynamic contrast along with less than stellar black level performance.


Best Regards

KvE

 

[ageha]

All Plasmas do flicker? Has to be the signal...

 

[JBDragon]

There's no flicker on my Panasonic. Maybe it's the lighting in the Room. Fluorescent lighting. Or it's the Signal, they have one source going to a bunch of HDTV's to all show the same thing, something on that end. It could be adjusted wrong. Who knows. There should be no flickering.

 

[Patrick.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by chopin952 /forum/post/15459471

What allows plasma or the Kuro to exhibit such a sharp image?

Thanks for your time.

Contrast: 30,000:1 on/off. Compare that number to the actual contrast ratios of other displays and you have your answer.

 

[Patrick.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JBDragon /forum/post/15460974


There's no flicker on my Panasonic. Maybe it's the lighting in the Room. Fluorescent lighting. Or it's the Signal, they have one source going to a bunch of HDTV's to all show the same thing, something on that end. It could be adjusted wrong. Who knows. There should be no flickering.

The flickering or "floating blacks" are supposed to be fixed on this year's Panasonics as long as you use the cinema mode, the ones complaining about it still aren't.

 

[Paul Clancy]

I've heard this flicker talked about and seen the video posted of the "wall of tvs" with only the plasmas flickering but I've never actually seen this in person on any plasma. I've certainly never seen it on any source on either of my kuros. FWIW the kuros are the only plasmas with 72hz refresh but as I say I've never seen flicker on any modern plasma panel. The detail your seeing that exceeds lcd tech is due to contrast/black level. The eye percieves black as detail and this also gives depth and shadow detail when implimented correctly. All this is why the 720p kuro 5080 was beating all the competitions 1080p panels in pro reviews-superior black.

 

[chopin952]

Sounds like it could be the 72Hz that reduces flicker on the Kuros vs. 60Hz plasmas. I remember the CRT days where I wanted a computer monitor with the highest refresh possible to avoid seeing flicker.


No other plasma brand refresh at or higher than 72Hz? I see the Panasonic touts a 480Hz Sub-field Drive. Is this the actual refresh rate or just a gimmick?

 

[daniel'son]

^^ .. post #5434 seems to know something about this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...00479&page=182

 

[chrisherbert]



Quote:
Originally Posted by chopin952 /forum/post/15464131


Sounds like it could be the 72Hz that reduces flicker on the Kuros vs. 60Hz plasmas. I remember the CRT days where I wanted a computer monitor with the highest refresh possible to avoid seeing flicker.


No other plasma brand refresh at or higher than 72Hz? I see the Panasonic touts a 480Hz Sub-field Drive. Is this the actual refresh rate or just a gimmick?

Plasmas don't work the same way as the old CRTs, so they generally don't need refresh rates any higher than 60hz. Pioneers offer 72hz not because it's "higher" than 60hz but because 24hz material can be shown without judder at that refresh rate. The 72hz mode is really only appropriate for film-based material. Watching a sports game, for instance, would look awful at 72hz.


The only plasma that I've heard people having a problem with as far as flicker is the Panasonic 800u in 48hz mode.


Panasonics refresh at 60hz (or 48hz in some cases with the 800u). The 480hz sub-field drive isn't the actual refresh rate.

 

[xrox]

CRT flicker : Effective duty cycle is ~10% and is raster scanned. This combination of short duty cycle and scanning line by line makes CRT flicker much more obvious than Plasma flicker even though they refresh as the same rate.

Plasma flicker : Effective duty cycle is ~30-40% and the screen is strobbed (except for Pioneer). The combination of longer duty cycle and all pixels turning on at once creates a flicker that is less noticeable.


Note : If you really want to notice plasma flicker then do the following:


- display a full screen white signal

- look directly at the screen with your eyes and head level

- rotate your eyes upwards keeping your head level

- watch the white screen with your peripheral vision (you will see a 60Hz strobbing type flicker)


As far as 480Hz subfield drive, post 5434 is incorrect. There are 8 subfields per frame of video and 60 frames per second meaning the screen refreshes 480 times per second but still only displays 60 frames per second. All plasma have operated in this manner all the way back to the 1990's. They just chose to use this as a marketing ploy since 120Hz came about.

 

[andredeclercq]

All plasma's are driven through sub fields. Usually 8 subfields/frame for 256 native grey levels(=480Hz for 60Hz frame rates). Under certain image content/motion conditions this way of driving can result in so called "Dynamic False Contours" (DFC). Maybe this is what in this thread is called "flikker". Higher frame rates an "intelligent frame creation" are used to reduce DFC

 

[467456878]

plasmas have always seemed to have a better picture (more natural) quality to me. i compare looking at the outside world through a glass window versus one made of scotch tape (plasma glass vs lcd plastic). heh. maybe it's my 20/10 vision, but looking at images through lcd plastic screens always seem to have a sparkle to them that makes it slightly less defined.

 

[chopin952]



Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox /forum/post/15464953

Plasma flicker : Effective duty cycle is ~30-40% and the screen is strobbed (except for Pioneer). The combination of longer duty cycle and all pixels turning on at once creates a flicker that is less noticeable.

Thanks for this explanation. Makes perfect sense. No wonder the Pioneers look more solid.

Quote:
Note : If you really want to notice plasma flicker then do the following:

- display a full screen white signal

- look directly at the screen with your eyes and head level

- rotate your eyes upwards keeping your head level

- watch the white screen with your peripheral vision (you will see a 60Hz strobbing type flicker)

This is exactly what I experience when walking around a store with lots of plasmas up on the wall. As soon as I avert my eyes, I notice flicker on the TV I was just looking at. Not too bothersome when fixed on one TV, but you know it's still there.

 

[jymothy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by andredeclercq /forum/post/15465163


. Under certain image content/motion conditions this way of driving can result in so called "Dynamic False Contours" (DFC).

is that when u get a picture of some ones nose and it looks like its caving in from doing too much coke

 

[chrisherbert]



Quote:
Originally Posted by chopin952 /forum/post/15468730


Thanks for this explanation. Makes perfect sense. No wonder the Pioneers look more solid.This is exactly what I experience when walking around a store with lots of plasmas up on the wall. As soon as I avert my eyes, I notice flicker on the TV I was just looking at. Not too bothersome when fixed on one TV, but you know it's still there.

In real world viewing I don't think this will be noticeable. After all, CRT flicker isn't really that noticable and it is 100 times worse than any plasma.