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@raynist, I am in Indonesia and pretty sure there is no way to audition it anywhere near by.

Can you point me to where the review by @carp is ?
I believe there is a guy on the JTR speaker thread from Indonesia. I will try to find his username.

I will try to find the posts by @carp this evening.

The user is @coolgeek

He is in Malaysia not Indonesia, but looks like you could be close depending on where in Malaysia.
 

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Wow, Mike. That was one detailed, well thought out explanation. Thank you.
I think I can follow your logic to the letter.



Was it obvious ? Lucky I dont play poker...
I was trying to be objective, since I've never actually auditioned the JTR, but yes the users feedback seem to be great. Got myself curious.


Yes, I agree. I think we can cross out the 215s from the list


Yes, agree to this too. There's a $600 difference from the 212RT but I'm still hesitant to cross the 212RT just yet...



That clears it up. I guess I'm crossing out the 212RT too.
I'm still not sure on how dual compression driver will translate into better sound or just more loudness.
Googling it shows that it is the source of the sound so I guess dual source means more loud ?



Just to be sure that I understand, this means that the 212T is not much of a compromise over the 212RT ? I am definitely not that young anymore. And listening to the kids cry when they were a baby probably didnt help my ears.


That is a sound logic Mike. Agree to this also.



Yes again. I think at the moment a compromise is needed so that I can find the balance between the mains, subs, surrounds, and the budget.

So I think I'm now down to:
Option 6: $13,060
3xJTR212T
2xpolk tower for sides
2xpolk surround for rear
4xJBL SCS8 for atmos
2xCAP2400

I'll try to save on the electronics by using the old outlaw 5 ch amp for the polk.
So for the JTR212T I will use an emo xpa-dr3 600w/ch (is this enough to power 212T or 212RT ?)

For the JBL SCS8, I will use an emo XPA5. The SCS8 is a bit of a wild card here because I dont know much about it. But if it works well as atmos, perhaps over time I will replace the polk with thw jbl also.

Would you mind telling me how this is as a plan ?

Thank you again for the detailed advise Mike

You are very welcome, Hugh! I am glad to be able to help a little. I think that your plan is entirely workable. I like the advice that raynist is giving you regarding the superiority of one speaker over another, and I also like the advice that jjackrash is giving you to try to stay with the same speaker for all of your surround channels. But, you are the one who is going to have to figure out how to pay for this. :p

If raynist says that putting the two speaker models side-by-side, you would select the more expensive one, I believe him. I would also believe carp who is also someone I respect. But, you may not be able to have the two speakers side-by-side to compare them, or even one of them to listen to. And, either will be a huge improvement compared to the Polk's you are accustomed to, so some degree of compromise may be necessary. Honestly, I think you could say the same thing about comparing dual Cap 4000's to dual Cap 2400's. But, the Cap 2400's will still be outstanding, and if you have a budget you need to stay within (and who doesn't?) then you have a budget.

I think the same thing could be said about the advice to try to use the same speaker for all of your surround channels. That would be the ideal, although a lot of home theaters can't manage that for one reason or another. And, that's where I think that some prioritization is in order. If re-purposing your Polk's temporarily helps you to get your most important system components in place, then so be it. It doesn't have to be permanent, but unless you can expand your budget, some interim compromises are almost certainly going to be necessary.

I will bet that there isn't a person responding to this thread who hasn't built his audio/HT system gradually, over a period of years. I certainly have, and I'll bet that we all understand the importance of budgets, and the necessity for compromise. If you really can afford to eat the elephant all in one big bite, that's terrific. But, if you can't, then I think you will still be well on your way to a first-class audio system with the plan you outlined. :)

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just read one of the recent posts on the JTR speaker thread. Good advice, but when the poster advised you not to mix Polk's and JTR's, because he had tried it, he was forgetting that he wasn't able to do everything at once either. Same thing with the advice to go with Cap 4000's. Unless people are willing to help support this endeavor with a Go-Fund-Me campaign, then you are probably going to have to follow a normal progression to get to an absolutely optimal audio system. :p I wouldn't get discouraged. I think that the nucleus of your plan is still viable.
 

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I say go for the high end CD. I say that because I have owned the 212 HTR's for a couple years, then I owned the 215 RT's for a couple years, and I've had the 210 RT's in my room for a few weeks and the 212 T's for a couple weeks.

In a nutshell, the higher end CD is worth it. Even on movies it makes a difference, but on music it's quite a significant difference.

For 2 channel music the 210 RT is my all time favorite speaker. However... I haven't heard the 212 RT and I have a feeling that I would like it even more since it combines the crazy sensitivity of the 212 HTR I used to own (105-106 sensitivity, not 101 rating JTR gives it) combined with extending to the low 30's hz range would be so awesome. Maybe not though, there is something to be said about how "small" the 210 is, and it can easily be used without subs for music. Placement becomes easier with a smaller speaker.

The 212 T's are nice... but will never have that smooth sound that you can get with the better CD. I read thorugh the thread quickly, but I think the thread starter says he is 30 percent music?

If he buys the JTR's with the higher end CD he will end up with a much higher music percentage than that. :D

If it were me... I would buy some 212 RT's and "get by" without the really low stuff until I saved up for some subs.

I should say though that I'm currently drinking heavily on my back porch since it's actually nice and cool for once tonight so I hope my advice makes sense. I'll update tomorrow if I read this and it makes no sense. :laugh:
 

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@mthomas47, solid feedback as usual, but also remember the OP indicated he saves big on shipping if he can get everything he needs now. I think at $300 a pop, it is probably worth getting 4 more SCS8s on the boat now rather than waiting till later, especially since I believe the sensitivity difference between to Polks and JTR's is going to be a real challenge when it comes time to level match.
 

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Yes you're right. It was 3 am herr and I've done my math wrong. Its suppose to be $1800 difference total for the LCR.
You just saved $600!!
 

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if in kuala lumpur...I would visit singapore for deals local...
 

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Discussion Starter #49
But, you may not be able to have the two speakers side-by-side to compare them, or even one of them to listen to. And, either will be a huge improvement compared to the Polk's you are accustomed to,
I like this. I think there is a lesson to being content somewhere in here.

If you really can afford to eat the elephant all in one big bite, that's terrific.
Haha. I prefer my elephant bite sized. Thank you ver much. But truthfuly, reading more comments below I think I'll try to squeeze some more to get to the RT

Again, sound advise and solid logic. Thank you Mike.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
In a nutshell, the higher end CD is worth it. Even on movies it makes a difference, but on music it's quite a significant difference.
Thank you. This is what I was looking for. A first person review of what the difference between the CD.

For 2 channel music the 210 RT is my all time favorite speaker.
Yes, this model is probably the only one with a "proper" recording on youtube that I thought it has something special about it. I'm hoping the 212 would be better than the 210...

but I think the thread starter says he is 30 percent music?
Yes

If he buys the JTR's with the higher end CD he will end up with a much higher music percentage than that. :D
:laugh: I'll drink to that

If it were me... I would buy some 212 RT's and "get by" without the really low stuff until I saved up for some subs.
I'm thinking that if I can squeeze the sub in for now, I can probably get by with lesser sound affect. So I'd delay the ear level surrounds for now.

I should say though that I'm currently drinking heavily
That is how I get some of my good ideas. Perhaps with a few sip, I'll convince myself on the RT over the T

Thank you @carp
 

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Discussion Starter #51
@mthomas47, I think at $300 a pop, it is probably worth getting 4 more SCS8s on the boat now rather than waiting till later, especially since I believe the sensitivity difference between to Polks and JTR's is going to be a real challenge when it comes time to level match.
The shipment part is true. It will probably cost me more than a Cap4000.
Unfortunately I dont think I can squeeze in more for the remaining JBL.
The good thing is they are rather small compared to the JTR, getting them later is much more feasible than getting a tower or sub separately.

So I think the plan is shaping up nicely.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Ok. So I have let all the info sink in and have decided on the speakers. I think I will go with the 212RT. Thank you again for all of your advise guys.

I actually have another question in relation to the electronics.

Which of these scenarios are preferable for the amps

Scenario 1: $3600
LCR 212RT =
xpa-dr3 [email protected]/ch
Remaining speakers JBL SCS8, Polk tower&surround:
xpa5-gen3 300W/8ohm/ch
and existing
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concerns:
A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa3 at only 600w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

Scenario 2: $4,000
LR mains 212RT:
2x XPA-dr1 1000w/4ohm/ch
Center 212RT +
ear level JBL SCS8, Polk tower and surround:
1x XPA5-gen3 (I think it can run each channel at different impendance) 300W/8ohm/4ch + 490W/4ohm/center channel.
Atmos channels:
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concern:
A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa-dr1 at 1000w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

B. Is it a bad idea to differentiate the amp used for the center channel vs the ones used for the LR channel ? Will it be very obvious ?

I know that the 212RT are sensitive. But (I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere) the spec also states that it needs 2000W. The 215RT also had the same spec and it was mentioned that it needs a lot of power. So these raised my concerns above.

Additional question:
The emo was chosen due to it iffering 220volt input. I'd very much appreciate recommendations on alternatives.

Thank you AVforumers
 

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Good choice on the 212rt's. Also keep in mind that Jeff has upgraded to the B&C compression driver in the T line. He said it performs considerably better than the old driver. Of course the higher end models still use the BMS driver.
 

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Scenario 1: $3600
LCR 212RT =
xpa-dr3 [email protected]/ch
Remaining speakers JBL SCS8, Polk tower&surround:
xpa5-gen3 300W/8ohm/ch
and existing
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concerns:
1. A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa3 at only 600w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

Scenario 2: $4,000
LR mains 212RT:
2x XPA-dr1 1000w/4ohm/ch
Center 212RT +
ear level JBL SCS8, Polk tower and surround:
1x XPA5-gen3 (I think it can run each channel at different impendance) 300W/8ohm/4ch + 490W/4ohm/center channel.
Atmos channels:
Outlaw 7100 100w/8ohm/ch

Concern:
2. A. The 212RT is rated at 2000W. Will the xpa-dr1 at 1000w be enough ? Am I losing 2.0 performance due to this ?
Am I risking the speaker by underpowering it ?

3. B. Is it a bad idea to differentiate the amp used for the center channel vs the ones used for the LR channel ? Will it be very obvious ?

I know that the 212RT are sensitive. But (I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere) 4. the spec also states that it needs 2000W. The 215RT also had the same spec and it was mentioned that it needs a lot of power. So these raised my concerns above.


Congratulations. The LCR are far and away the most important speakers in any audio system. I haven't followed thread but if I could ask, have you decided on the subwoofer? It has got to be JTR 2400 or 4000 right? :) For your questions, all IMHO, and "in general":

1. Yes. It's a complicated topic but suffice it to say, in general in high-end/high performance audio, a higher rating amplifier is desirable. "Sounds" better, more headroom, and less chance of clipping, which could damage drivers. The demand for current (hence power) could also come from the woofers, especially with ultra low bass played at high volume. You could see glimpse of this in the JTR subwoofer line: 1400 watts for JTR 1400, 2400 watts for big brother 2400, etc.

2. Unequivocally, no, with 1000w/4 ohm (if true) you are most definitely not "under-powering," especially for these highly sensitive speakers. This is a complicated topic also :) now that I think about it, but at any rate, what JTR states on the web site is "recommended amplification up to 2000 watts RMS (program)." To me, it's more of a warning to NOT run more than 2000 watts into the speaker, and a declaration of the very high power it could TOLERATE/ALLOW. It does NOT mean it needs 2000 watts to sound good. I hope you see the fine point.

3. Yet another complicated topic but in general, no. Difference in the "sound" of good quality solid state amps are hard to detect. After many years in this hobby, to tell a difference I would still have to do careful shoot-out with 2 channel music on familiar materials to tell. The difference usually could be heard in low frequency response, imaging, soundstage depth, etc. In a movie setting (vs music), the difference becomes nearly impossible to detect.
Of note, difference between speakers OTOH are much more significant and easily noted. The speakers, as typical of electro-mechanical interface devices, influence the overall sound much more than difference in ss amps.

4. See above. The speaker doesn't need 2000 watts. I actually think this is a confusing "spec." High end speakers, in general, are not "rated" for power really. Yet another complicated topic :).
 

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The JTR 212RT is a wonderful choice!!

They can take 2000w but you will not be able to!!

Talk with Jeff and see what he recommends. I have the 212 HTR and with just a 100w receiver they can drive me out of the room.

At 128w they will put out 122db at 1 meter with their 101db aensitivity, given that they have been tested at 105db that is really 126db.

If you have a receiver that puts out over 40w per channel try that out first before spending a lot of money on a receiver.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Thank you @flat4, @cannga, @raynist.

It seems that I may have misunderstood what the specs mean. I have always thought: "recommended amplification" to be the minimum required power ... my mistake.
I think this clears up point 1, 2, 4 above.

On point 3, I may have not explained my question clearly. My concern was that , *during home theater use*, would it be noticable if I use different amplifier and different power rating between the LR vs the Center channel ?
That is, if LR is powered by 1000w amp and center is powered by only 490w.

I hope I've clarified the question.
 

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Thank you @flat4, @cannga, @raynist.

It seems that I may have misunderstood what the specs mean. I have always thought: "recommended amplification" to be the minimum required power ... my mistake.
I think this clears up point 1, 2, 4 above.

On point 3, I may have not explained my question clearly. My concern was that , *during home theater use*, would it be noticable if I use different amplifier and different power rating between the LR vs the Center channel ?
That is, if LR is powered by 1000w amp and center is powered by only 490w.

I hope I've clarified the question.
Should be no difference. You would likely get hearing damage before you tapped out the 500w amp. A 1000w amp will get you 3 more dB of output over a 500w amp. A 2000w amp will get you 6 db of output over a 500w amp. Every doubling of wattage nets you 3 dB of output.
 
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