AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK...a little background so everyone doesn't think that I don't do my homework. I have thoroughly read the following info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ght=holy+yikes
http://www.mooneyass.com/Sony1270Q

The Sony 1272Q installation manual

Parts of the Sony 1272Q Engineers (??) manual


I have a brand new baby 1272Q! I am trying my first round at getting it properly converged. At this point, I feel comfortable with LIN, SKEW, PIN, KEY, ZONE, etc...


I have reset the unit to factory setting (SW1).


This is my problem. I cannot get the projected image centered correctly in the image area. As far as I can tell (following Guy Kuo's setup tips), the image area is perfectly centered on the crt face (raster??). However, the projected image is on the far right and bottom edge of the image area. See my picasso below.


I guess it would help if I was better at the terminology (raster vs. phosfor vs. image area). Sorry...I can't seem to find a clear definition. In the picture below, what I call the "CRT Face" is just that. It fills teh entire area when looking directly into the lens (the rounded edges). "Image Area" is the square/rectangle that is projected. And, "projected image"...no explanation needed.


Another symptom is when I try to adjust the size, the projected image travels outside of the "image area". I have tried messing with the pole magnets to no avail (they just seem to effect the focus somewhat and move the entire image arond the CRT face a bir. I have tried moving it with ZONE (changing both the Hf and Hc numbers). This didn't seem to help.


I'm at a loss!


Any help you guys can provide will be greatly appreciated! So much so...I'll send you a case of your favorite beer



Thanks a lot!


John


PS...Please..lite beer drinkers need not apply!

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
833 Posts
Hi John,


can't help you with your setup issues, since i am not too skilled on the 1272. But about terminology...


What you call 'CRT face' is normally refered to as 'phosphor'. The 'raster' is the area that the CRT beam scans, so that would be the green area in your sketch. Thats where the term 'raster centering' comes from, you center the 'raster' on the tube surface to induce a symmetrical sweap of the beam, thus maximizing convergence stability.


The area that you painted white in your sketch is the actual 'image', the picture content. Its the part of the raster that actually shows picture information. The rest of the raster (the green border) are the horizontal/vertical front/back porches.


In general, what you would have to do is make sure you know which controls on your 1272 actually move the 'raster' on the phosphor (probably called raster centering) and which controls move the 'image' within the raster (a 'position' contol).


Then what you should do, is perfectly center the raster on the green gun. This is easier if you first use the 'size' control to make the raster fill 90% of the phosphor. Now center the image within the raster for a moment, using the normal 'position' control. Display a crosshair (e.g. Avia). Mechanically aim your projector so that the middle of the green crosshair points at the middle of your screen.


Now, there are 2 options.


a) Your projector supports a horizontal swing of the red and blue tubes. Then you need to center the raster (again with raster centering) on the phosphor for the red and blue tubes also and swing them in, so that the vertical line of the crosshair converges. There should be little difference in vertical alignment between the 3 tubes. If there is some, you should use the vertical raster centering adjustment on the red and blue tubes to fix align them.


b) Your projector does NOT support a horizontal swing of the red and blue tubes, which i think is true for the 127x series? Then you need to align the red and blue tubes both horizontally AND vertically to match the green crosshair, again using raster centering.


Now, your 'raster' is aligned to your screen. This is going to stay this way no matter what resolutions and aspect ratios you are going to use later on.


You will now realize that the normal 'position' control will actually move the 'image' within the 'raster' and that the normal 'size' control enlarges the raster. Once you input your desired resolution with a certain scan frequency, you will use these 2 controls to match the image on your screen.


Regards

Bjoern
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for that deatiled explanation Bjoern!!! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!! Half the battle is just knowing what to call each component.


As far as I can tell, the raster is perfectly centered on the phosphor on all 3 tubes. I just need to adjust the size to take up more of the phosphor area. I think I can handle that.


Anyways, I think you may have hit on something! Can you explain what you mean about "normal"? I have a "NORMAL" button on my control panel but never fully understood what it was used for! Hell...I have no idea what it is used for ;)


Also, you are correct about the Sony 12XX not supporting swing. That much I DO know ;)


Thanks again!


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
972 Posts
Hi John,


Ummm...why do you even care whether the image is centered on the 3 tubes? Are you doing your adjustments by looking at the tubes instead of the image?


You should be able to simply increase HSIZE and VSIZE, then shift the image and get what you want (I also have a 1272Q).


Thanks,

Bryan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi Bryan. Whenever I try and increase the H size (left and right), teh projected image travels outside of the image area. Basically, the image area stays put, and the image itself moves beyond it and does not produce a picture at that point.


See pic below.


The blue outside of the green is not visible on the screen. And if I keep shifting/streatching the picture to the right, more of the pic just disappears.


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
833 Posts
John,


i just prepared a little pic:

http://www.peopleindustry.de/BjoernRoy/Misc/crt.jpg


Note, that the 'front' and 'back' terms in regard to porches are different than you might expect. Thats because the front and back terms are meant relative to the sync they envelop and not relative to the picture content. So in the horizontal direction on the right side of actual image, there is the 'hor. front porch' than the 'sync' (CRT sweaps back, is now on the left again) and then the 'hor. back porch', followed by the actual image again. Same in the vertical dimension.


Note also, that i colored the raster slightly brighter to the left and right borders. Thats because the beam usually needs to accelerate and then stabilize after a horizontal retrace. In the time it accelerates, the beam spreads the same current over a smaller area on the phosphor, thus exciting it more, yielding a brighter lumination. This decreases until the beam reaches its final stable velocity.


To summarize what common controls do what.

1. Raster


a) Position

The raster can be moved on the phosphor with the 'raster centering' controls.


b) Size

The raster can be scaled on the phosphor with the 'size' control.

2. Image


a) Position

The image can be moved within the raster with the 'position' control.


b) Size

The size of the image within the raster can 'usually' not be controlled in the projector. Its a function of how large the front/back porches in both dimensions are in the used video timing. On a HTPC this can be controled with PowerStrip. Few external scalers allow this. Does anyone know on which model/brands this can be controled?


The actual names of these controls might obviously differ from one projector brand/model to the next.


Quote:
Anyways, I think you may have hit on something! Can you explain what you mean about "normal"? I have a "NORMAL" button on my control panel but never fully understood what it was used for!
No, sorry. I don't mean a 'normal' button. I just meant 'normal' as in 'not-raster-centering'. The position control is usually a user level control, while raster-centering is often a service menu control.

Quote:
The blue outside of the green is not visible on the screen. And if I keep shifting/streatching the picture to the right, more of the pic just disappears.
Thats interesting. You say you can 'strech' the image (blue)within the raster (green)? That would be a case of 2b) above, where you adjust the timing. What you need is a size control that actually stretches the raster.


BUT if you say that the raster is centered on your tubes properly and the image, when centered in the raster, does NOT fit on your screen, then the physical placement/direction of your projector is not optimal. As i described above, you should physically move and aim your projector in such a way, that the image DOES fit proper on the screen, when image and raster are perfectly centered.


Is your projector ceiling mounted and already fix?


Regards

Bjoern


[btw: check your PM]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
833 Posts
As the names of those controls mentioned above differ for each brand/model, it would be great if people could post what it is called on theirs.


On the Nec XG, they are:


1a) 'Raster centering' in the service menu.

1b) 'Size' in the position menu (user level).

2a) 'Shift' !? in the position menu (user level).

2b) Not possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Bjoern Roy


BUT if you say that the raster is centered on your tubes properly and the image, when centered in the raster, does NOT fit on your screen, then the physical placement/direction of your projector is not optimal. As i described above, you should physically move and aim your projector in such a way, that the image DOES fit proper on the screen, when image and raster are perfectly centered.


Is your projector ceiling mounted and already fix?


Regards

Bjoern


[btw: check your PM]


That just might do it! I was fidling around and moved the PJ a good bit closer to the screen to try and take up more of the phosphor surface. Maybe I moved too close and it is limiting my ability to size the screen.


BTW...my PJ is temorarily sitting on a crate until I am more familiar with teh controls and adjustments. It will be ceiling mounted at some point.


Thanks for the AWESOME advice Bjoern!!! I may own you a case of your favorite beer!!! :)


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
I have a 1270 so it is almost equal to a 1272,

I did not have the change to the centering correct yet, as that would mean I have to take of the lenses.


But as I read from the other posts, I think the controls for changing the raster and image areas are as follows.


raster is done using the convergance (the sony name is registration) controls, like: "size", "lin", "key", "zone", etc.


The image area within the raster should then be changed with "rgb size" and "rgb shift". But these will only work when you feed the projector an RGB signal.


But I haven't tried it yet, so I'm not sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
takev, thanks for the reply!


My problem is that the image is so far to the right on the raster (right means when I look directly into the lens) that I run out of play with the RGB shift and size. Is there no other way to "physically" move the image area on the raster?


Thanks,


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
John,


The 1272 does not have separate size controls on the remote for the image versus the raster. It can get confusing following some of the directions that are meant for a different projector like the NEC models.


The "size", "lin", "key" etc. controls are only used for convergence/geometry. For instance, the "size" control affects the size of the image most at the perimeter and progressively less as you reach the center, this is for picture geometry not overall size. The RGB size key will increase the overall picture size.


Before you physically shim and position your tube/lens assemblies you should electronically center things using the zone control in the serviceman menu.(also center the RGB shift) After entering service mode go to the zone key (lower right-hand of remote) and look at the numbers represented on the screen. For each tube you will see the cross-hatch pattern and four sets of numbers. (Hc:128, Hf:128, Vc:128, Vf:128) Chances are that these numbers will not all be centered at 128. When you have all four sets of numbers at 128 for all three tubes you then have things electronically centered (provided that the raster centering magnets on the yoke are set accurately) Now you can physically align the three tubes to get the cross-hairs to align at center. (or alternatively a white field to align at edges which might be a little better)


I am at work and doing this from memory as the projector is at home. Someone will hopefully correct me if I am misinformed on any of this.


Richard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
Thanks Bjoern Roy for the great posts.


Brad :cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Bjoern Roy posted:"As the names of those controls mentioned above differ for each brand/model, it would be great if people could post what it is called on theirs. On the Nec XG, they are: "


1a) 'Raster centering' in the service menu.

1b) 'Size' in the position menu (user level).

2a) 'Shift' !? in the position menu (user level).

2b) Not possible.



I am home and can now verify the equivalent controls on the 1272 (and probably all 12XX series) are:


1a) 'Zone' key accessed in the serviceman mode. (position no.1 only!)

1b) 'RGB SIZE' key available anytime on the remote (user level).

2a) 'Shift' key available anytime on the remote (user level).

2b) Not possible.


The controls are not very different after all.:)


A note on raster centering: The number one position in the zone adjustment menu can be used to center the raster on the phosphor. There are Hc, Hf, Vc and Vf numbers listed when you go to this menu. You adjust the Hf and Vf (fine adjustment) by pressing the arrow keys once or in other words just tapping them. You adjust the Hc and Vc (centering adjustment) by holding down the respective arrow button. The "CENT R" and "B" buttons on the remote are for fine adjustment only (they only affect the Hf & Vf numbers) and are typically used to touch up alignment once you have the gross adjustment done in the serviceman zone menu.


Richard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
RNO...


Thanks for more great info!!! You guys rule!


I finally got a decent picture out of my 1272Q! You won't guess how I did it...


I READ THE MANUAL!!! LMAO


Actually, this link was a huge help in getting pointed in the right direction (for rough focus):

http://www.projectorspecs.com/page25.html


My whole problem with the projected picture running off teh edge of the image area was my own fault. I forgot that everyhting in that respect moves backwards. In other words, when I looked at the screen, If I tried an RGB SHIFT or SIZE to the right, the right side of teh projected image would disappear into blackness. I figured...OK...I'll just use ZONE to move the image further to the right to create more useable space. WRONG!!!!


I had to use ZONE to move the image to the left and then physically move the PJ to the right. DUHHH!


Anyways, I would like to thank everyone for all the help. Also, I have been trading e-mails with David Abrams about coming down from NY to calibrate my PJ. I'M PUMPED!!!


Thanks again,


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
I'm going to be playing with my vertical front and back porch settings on my HTPC using powerstrip to adjust values. I have noticed that the image scans right to the edge of the raster vertically, don't know if this is a problem but I will be experimenting with it...


Thanks again,

Brad
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top