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Yep,


Had another random "go live" moment on my DTV Tivo last night/this morning.


Was watching the last part of a movie and someone was going to get killed... I "turned away" since I wanted to record an upcoming showing and see the entire movie. I left the room and in short order the DVR decided it wanted to show me the very ending of the show. Luckily I wasn't in the room but I heard it kick in... So I did go back and rewound to the part "I missed" and reviewed the rest of the movie.


Well played DTV/Tivo. Well played. Keep watching the TV at any cost.


Is this "go live" problem in other "regular" Tivos or is this just a "feature" DTV added for some reason?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0


Yeah, it's very important to me, too. According to the CSR, the HR20-700 now has the 30-second skip enabled. I'll let you know.


Burt

Sort of.


From what I hear, it does a quick fast forward in 30 second incriments each time you hit the skip button. So, it's not instant, but it's quicker than just a straight fast forward. I guess the bonus is you can hit play before it gets all the way forward if you see it overshoot the next show segment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket /forum/post/0


There was a request to show the number of 30-sec slips left and be decremented as each took effect. This indicates to me that the slip is lengthly. Does it ramp up and ramp down or is it uniform. Do you get a smiggin of audio at each break? And just how fast is it?

I just checked my HR20 and each 30-second "slip" takes about 2 seconds to complete (SD playback). You can queue up to 20 slips -- the total number of slips that are requested in succession is shown on screen. And no, that number doesn't decrement (one of my wish list items too). But with software updates coming fast-and-furious it might be in a future release. There is no audio between slips that are queued in this way -- back-to-back slip requests slides you forward about a minute, and it takes about 4 seconds.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/0


I guess the bonus is you can hit play before it gets all the way forward if you see it overshoot the next show segment.

Yes ... hitting play or jump-back stops the "slipping" and cancels the queued requests. Since the networks are varying the number of commercials each break more-and-more, this is really handy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by teejay44 /forum/post/0


Please do give us report.....I have been holding off on a HD dvr for cost to drop, but do miss being able to skip commercials....

As promised...


I have now lived with an HR20 for about a week. As a devout, rabid UTV user, I thought it might be useful to share some reactions.

Installation

The installation was flawless. The techs showed up on time. Three hours later, I had a complete, professional installation of a new dish in a new placement, double cable runs for three TV setups (HR20, UTV, and Tivo), and, of course, a new HR20-700S. Everything worked properly from the start. I'm impressed.
Picture quality

The picture quality is astounding.

SD is SD, but SD picture quality is better than UTV. (I suspect this has more to do with moving up from S-Video to Component than anything else.)
Interface

The interface is tolerable. In general, it's not as good as UTV, but not as bad as TIVO. Some specifics:
Slip, not skip

As others have pointed out, the 30 second Skip is actually a 30 second slip. It's faster than fast-forward. I timed it several times. It takes two seconds to gobble up 30 seconds of real-time. I had hoped I would be able to report that I got used to it. I haven't. I never realized how long and how irritating two seconds could be. A three-minute commercial break takes 12 seconds. It's unnecessarily irritating. I don't understand why D* implemented it this way. At 15:1 speed, you don't register the commercials, anyway. I hope they fix it.
Better search than UTV

I was surprised to find that I like the HR20 search implementation better than the UTV's. Instead of the UTV's quasi-keyboard (ABCDE), letters and numbers are arranged in a 6x7 matrix. In Title searches, each button press brings up relevant titles from the guide (in TIVO fashion). The only sour note is that there seems to be about a half second delay between button presses. It slows down entry of search characters considerably.


Other search functions are Person, Keyword, and Channel.


Handling of previous searches is much better than UTV. I don't know the capacity, but so far I have 25 previous searches, in alphabetical order, that I can scroll through and repeat with a button press.


In all cases, the search function is much faster than the UTV's.
Difficult to manage series recordings

I'm still working on this. Instead of the UTV's All Upcoming Recordings display, the HR20 uses a To Do list. The problem is that all scheduled recordings do not show up on the To Do list. (I still haven't figured out which types of recordings appear, but it makes it hard to manage series recordings.)


If you want to change a series record for a different time or channel, you can't do it until you find the original recording in the To Do list or the Guide and delete it.


Maybe I just don't understand the interface logic, but it seems like a lot of unnecessary fuss and bother.
Error protection

I ran across an interesting omission. The unit let me schedule a recording on a channel I don't get. I found out about it when I tried to play the recording and there was nothing there. It then informed me why I didn't get the recording. I should have been notified when I tried to schedule it in the first place.
OTA quality & integration

OTA quality is outstanding. Picture quality is as good as sending the RF feed directly to my TV. I think the tuner is better than the one in my Sony XBR. (The local PBS station, KCET, breaks up constantly with the XBR tuner. It is rock-solid with the HR20 tuner. Both tuners are fed with the same antenna.)


The integration of OTA and DBS channels is elegant. All channels appear in the same program guide in a logical fashion. There are two ATSC tuners and two DBS tuners. Output from all tuners can be recorded. I don't know if this means you can record four programs at once (2 ATSC and 2 DBS). I haven't tried it yet.


BTW, I am feeding the XBR ATSC tuner and the HR20 ATSC tuners simultaneously with a simple antenna splitter. That way, I can still watch live OTA on the XBR tuner if all other tuners are tied up. Works like a charm.
Resolution/Formats
Confusing

This is probably not the fault of the HR20. The HR20 provides four resolutions: 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Each of these resolutions is available in three formats: Crop, Stretch, and Pillar Box. My XBR has four formats: Zoom, Wide Zoom, Full, and Normal. That's 48 possible configurations. It was a bit overwhelming, at first.


I think I finally got on top of it. I've found that I can leave the XBR on Full format and forget it. If you set the HR20 to Native Mode, it automatically produces the picture format and resolution it receives. The only time I have to change format is when I receive a letter-boxed SD program. Selecting the Crop format produces a satisfactory picture.
RTFM

The key to setting up the resolution/format is actually documented in the User Guide (p. 84): Resolution made simple: Set the resolution to the highest number your TV supports by pressing the RES key [This refers to the 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i keyson the receiver]. If you then set the HR20 to native mode, everything falls into place. This may be old stuff to professionals, but, as a newbie, I found it very helpful.
PIP

Nonexistent.
Bugs (Software Upgrade: Ox168, Downloaded: 6/14/07)
Go-live bug

This is driving me nuts. If you press Stop during a recording or if you delete a recording, the whole system reverts to the last live channel tuned. There seems to be a conspiracy in the universe to make this happen when the last channel tuned is broadcasting a commercial at about triple the SPL of what I have been watching. I am constantly getting blasted out of my seat. This is dumb and intolerable.
Slip, then Back-Skip can break the aspect ratio

This one seems to happen when you are watching out of Native format (e.g., you change to Crop format to see a letter-boxed SD program). If you do a few skips (slips) and a few back-skips, the aspect ratio is actually broken. The picture is stretched vertically into no standard format. (It is frightening to see William Shatner with a face that is three times taller than it is wide, instead of the other way around.) You have to find a 1080i program and switch to it then return to the recording you were watching to restore the aspect ratio.
Auto-record broken in Title search

At first, I thought there was no auto-record function on the HR20. If you do a Title search for a program that is not yet in the guide, you seem to reach a dead-end. There is no auto-record option. I am trying to get around this by using a Keyword search to enter a title. If the program is not in the guide, there is an auto-record option available. I don't know if this works. I'll have to wait to see if I get my desired recordings in a few weeks.
A few tips

This is a wonderful resource for getting up to speed on the HR20: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=747592 . Here are a few tips from this document that I found useful:
Ring of fire

The HR20 has a circle of very bright LEDs on its face. They flash and chase each other during certain operations. (I am not amused.) You can dim or turn them off completely by pressing the Left and Right buttons simultaneously on the receiver.
Turn off Animation

The interface runs faster if you turn off Scrolling Effects.
5.1 Dolby Digital

If you are running your audio through a 5.1 receiver, you have to set it up manually. The default is not 5.1.
Summary

In general, I'm happy I made the switch. (Did I mention that the picture quality is astounding?) The unit feels like it is in a late beta stage. I hope D* will work out the bugs soon. The picture quality makes up for the inconvenience.
Burt
 

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Agreed.


Reviews of DVRs from the UTV POV are greatly appreciated.


Not sure how often DTV is doing Software Upgrades on the HR20. (I'd heard it was CRAZY often not long ago) Maybe when it settles down I can feel more comfortable with using it.


Before UTV I was fairly confident that MS couldn't come up with a stable (bug free) Interface. UTV 3.5 and 3.7 have been good to me. 4 years of 3.7 hasn't given me much to complain about.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgodave /forum/post/0


Agreed.


Reviews of DVRs from the UTV POV are greatly appreciated.


Not sure how often DTV is doing Software Upgrades on the HR20. (I'd heard it was CRAZY often not long ago) Maybe when it settles down I can feel more comfortable with using it.


Before UTV I was fairly confident that MS couldn't come up with a stable (bug free) Interface. UTV 3.5 and 3.7 have been good to me. 4 years of 3.7 hasn't given me much to complain about.

There was an update just last week. They are still happening fast and furiously. I think they are trying to get as many new features active as possible before the all the new HD channels (150+) come online over the next few months.

One other very nice option (never available to us UTVers) is participation in the CE (Cutting Edge) program via DBSTalk. This is not an exclusive group and is very easy to sign-up for. There is a prerequisite that you must agree to not call DTV regarding problems created by the CE updates. But that is not an issue since all the REAL support for the HR20 is via DBSTalk. This is pretty much where ALL the development ideas being incorporated into the HR20 are coming from. Just the networking features alone put it way ahead of the UTV.


lgodave, I felt the same way you did until recently when I started to see the buginess subside along with sweet deals others were getting. There are issues, some mentioned in Burt's review (very nice job Burt!), that are still being worked on. But they aren't show-stoppers. I am seeing new features being added with almost no side effects. Most of those who are complaining about the updates have been complaining for a long time, and continue to, because a long-standing issue they have had with their DVR still persists. I think it is due to the HR20 they have since many others report the updates fixing the same issue with their device(s). One thing is for sure - DTV is committed to making a home run with this unit which is different than when they inherited the UTV. They are much more experienced now and are still putting forth all the resources needed to produce a very good performing HD-DVR. I haven't been sorry since the installer left (he did a crappy, lazy job
).

The other thing to remember is this: If you are planning on getting an HR20 in the near future it would be a good idea to do it while the deals I described above are still there to be had. My gut feeling is once all the HD channels come online DTV will have people lining up ready to pay a premium price for the HR20's and their programming. For the time being they are satisfied to give us DTV long-timers free equipment and programming in exchange for another two years of loyalty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Slip, then Back-Skip can break the aspect ratio

This one seems to happen when you are watching out of Native format (e.g., you change to Crop format to see a letter-boxed SD program). If you do a few skips (slips) and a few back-skips, the aspect ratio is actually broken. The picture is stretched vertically into no standard format. (It is frightening to see William Shatner with a face that is three times taller than it is wide, instead of the other way around.) You have to find a 1080i program and switch to it then return to the recording you were watching to restore the aspect ratio.
Update


I called D* about this issue. They suggested that I had a software issue that might be corrected with a reboot. I tried it and it worked. Looks like this issue should be removed from my bug list.


Burt
 

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Hello--I'm hoping sdomeone can help. I am asking here, as this problem is new to me (it has not occurred in the past). I had the DVR set up to record a show in HD. When it came time, the tuner switched (with warning) to the appropriate channel to record. For some reason, I am unable to watch another HD channel on the second SAT tuner (I can watch HD via the antenna hookup--but the channel I wish to watch is on the satellitel only). My question--if there are two tuners for SAT (both connected properly), why can I not watch one HD SAT channel while another is recording? Additionally, I have recorded two HD channels at the same time in the past (I think), so I'm not sure what the issue is...why have two tunersif only one is usable?
 

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Really good write-up Burt. Here are some updates for those considering a move:

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Interface Better search than UTV

Handling of previous searches is much better than UTV. I don't know the capacity, but so far I have 25 previous searches, in alphabetical order, that I can scroll through and repeat with a button press.

The limit on "recent searches" is 25.
But you can clear unused ones after you repeat the search (a Delete option appears), or you can press Menu from the list of searches and use Mark and Delete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Interface Difficult to manage series recordings

I'm still working on this. Instead of the UTV's All Upcoming Recordings display, the HR20 uses a To Do list. The problem is that all scheduled recordings do not show up on the To Do list. (I still haven't figured out which types of recordings appear, but it makes it hard to manage series recordings.) If you want to change a series record for a different time or channel, you can't do it until you find the original recording in the To Do list or the Guide and delete it. Maybe I just don't understand the interface logic, but it seems like a lot of unnecessary fuss and bother.

Once you get to the To Do List (TDL), look for the Prioritizer option on the left. That is a list of Series Recordings. And your point about "no changes until you have a show to record" is valid. This is one of the top "wish list" items for the HR20 (search dbstalk and you'll find that that "wish list").

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Interface Error protection

I ran across an interesting omission. The unit let me schedule a recording on a channel I don't get. I found out about it when I tried to play the recording and there was nothing there. It then informed me why I didn't get the recording. I should have been notified when I tried to schedule it in the first place.

This is the Channels-I-Receive (CIR) problem. It makes Auto-Records from search results totally useless. The HR20 will record those on any channel -- whether you get that channel or not. (My biggest gripe!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

OTA quality & integration

The integration of OTA and DBS channels is elegant. All channels appear in the same program guide in a logical fashion. There are two ATSC tuners and two DBS tuners. Output from all tuners can be recorded. I don't know if this means you can record four programs at once (2 ATSC and 2 DBS). I haven't tried it yet.

You can only record 2 shows at a time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Bugs (Software Upgrade: Ox168, Downloaded: 6/14/07) Go-live bug

This is driving me nuts. If you press Stop during a recording or if you delete a recording, the whole system reverts to the last live channel tuned. There seems to be a conspiracy in the universe to make this happen when the last channel tuned is broadcasting a commercial at about triple the SPL of what I have been watching. I am constantly getting blasted out of my seat. This is dumb and intolerable..

I leave my system on one of the XM Music channels to minimize this issue. But it doesn't help when there are 2 simulateous recording in progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Bugs (Software Upgrade: Ox168, Downloaded: 6/14/07) Auto-record broken in Title search

At first, I thought there was no auto-record function on the HR20. If you do a Title search for a program that is not yet in the guide, you seem to reach a dead-end. There is no auto-record option. I am trying to get around this by using a Keyword search to enter a title. If the program is not in the guide, there is an auto-record option available. I don't know if this works. I'll have to wait to see if I get my desired recordings in a few weeks.

As noted above, Auto-Records will drive you nuts. I suggest you not even try until there is a fix for this. Or only use them if you are recording a show that is just one channel - ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

A few tips 5.1 Dolby Digital

If you are running your audio through a 5.1 receiver, you have to set it up manually. The default is not 5.1.

I think this is the same on UTV. It has just been so long that everyone has forgotten they had to tell the box to use the Optical output as the default.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/0

Update


Originally Posted by balpers
Slip, then Back-Skip can break the aspect ratio

This one seems to happen when you are watching out of Native format (e.g., you change to Crop format to see a letter-boxed SD program). If you do a few skips (slips) and a few back-skips, the aspect ratio is actually broken. The picture is stretched vertically into no standard format. (It is frightening to see William Shatner with a face that is three times taller than it is wide, instead of the other way around.) You have to find a 1080i program and switch to it then return to the recording you were watching to restore the aspect ratio.


I called D* about this issue. They suggested that I had a software issue that might be corrected with a reboot. I tried it and it worked. Looks like this issue should be removed from my bug list.


Burt

Looks like this should go back on the bug list. The reboot only cleared the problem temporarily. Tried it several times with the same results. I contacted D* and they sent me a replacement unit. The replacement unit has the identical problem.


They are sending a tech out tomorrow to see (fix?) the problem


Burt
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by balpers /forum/post/10743994


Has anyone seen this behavior on a Sony SAT-W60?


1. About a week ago, I found that it had powered itself off. When I turned it on, it tried to dial out on my nonexistent phone line. I pulled the plug and waited about a half hour. When I replaced the plug, it booted normally.


2. Today, I found that all my recordings were erased. When I checked the History, I found that each erased recording had the cryptic message, "The recording was erased because the video was not available."


It now seems to be recording normally.


....


Any other suggestions?


Burt

Well my Sony SAT-W60 UTV gave me "The recording was erased because the video was not available." Log messages and deleted ALL MY SHOWS. On a 160GB drive that was nearly 100% that is A LOT of shows.


Didn't notice right away since all my Upcomings/Series/Auto Recordings (and History Log) were completely intact.


It deleted everything on Wednesday 12/31 (2003?) at 6:00pm.


I can get it to repeat this problem by forcing a reset (12357). It takes extra time resetting and then deleting what ever recordings I've managed to record on the drive. I tried the 2355 2355 option to "restore" it to an out of the box like condition but the problem is still there.


I'm going to try and "refresh" service since my Locals haven't come back yet after the 2355 2355 code... Hopefully that might resolve the problem. I guess if it doesn't I may have to try and reinstall the old 40GB drive and see if that resolves it...


Otherwise it looks like my Sony UTV might not be seeing 2008... Protection Plan to the rescue?
 

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3+ Hours with DTV/UTV/MSNTV Tech Support so far. It's a 3-Ring Circus! Hopefully there is a light at the end of this tunnel...


My MSNTV "Account" is associated with my Sony UTV and it seems to be preventing the UTV from getting the needed 3.8 update via modem. Hopefully I can get the account "killed or swapped" so that the Sony can get the update.
 

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Well well... over 5 hours later and I'm getting an OS Update on the Sony.


They (MSNTV/DTV) kept saying it couldn't be done (after constantly handing me off,dropping calls,giving me dead ends,etc.)... They convinced me to upgrade to an R15... but it would seem all the "impossible" things ARE possible. I can "swap" my MSNTV account to another UTV. A 411 code... the SSID # of the "new moved to" UTV... a 30 second power down/reboot... and the Sony doesn't go to MSNTV "Home"... Instead it downloads the update as it should.


I'm glad to have the R15 to fall back on... but it's another example of how if you want something done... you have to do it yourself and try try again until you find the right person,place,time to get the job done.


I'd rate much of the CSR help as very good... it is unfortunate that UTV/MSNTV related problems aren't a "one stop shop"... that you can talk to just one person or group... This would have been rather quick if DTV had simply directed me to MSNTV to "swap" the units... and actually find somebody that knows how to do it...
 

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No offense David, but you have been here forever. I just have to ask....why are you such supporter of the download method?

You've helped countless people who, probably, couldn't do the WinHex method and now you, youself, spent HOURS trying to get 3.8....??!!

Why didn't you just load it on your HD? Surely you know the method, or at least know everybody to PM for assistance.


Happy New Year,

klassic


Ps... it is a sad New Year to see all you 'old timers' talking about new machines
 

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I guess I've never had any serious problems with the download method to NOT recommend it to people. The only reason this was an issue this time was because my MSNTV account was somehow "blocking" the download.


I guess it was kind of a once I started hassling DTV about fixing this problem I wanted to see it to the end. My R15 arrived today and I'll try setting that up later tonight... Yet it would seem my Sony is stable enough to maybe replace one of my "One Tuner" UTVs... I might restore the 160GB drive and "download" the OS again...


Of coarse it might be interesting to see what DTV has to say when I ask if my "Dead" (R15 replacing) Sony UTV can stay on the account. I guess I'll have to tell them I "fixed" it myself. Not sure how the Protection Plan works on this front. They don't want the Sony UTV back in exchange so it's still mine to do with as I please I guess...


I'll let you know.
 

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lgodave, I hate to hear the troubles you had. I'm glad you found a work around that fixed your Sony UTV.


I am unsure as to why your MSNTV account info was stored on that one particular receiver? I am not sure if this info is stored on a flash chip on the UTV board?


I set up an MSN account right off when I first set-up my original RCA UTV. ( Just because I could from my couch I guess.. ) I have only had RCA UTV's. I never really used it though. Web pages did not render correctly like from a dedicated web browser.


Needless to say, my original UTV is long gone. It got hit by a lightning strike that fried the modem and corrupted the hard drive. I placed the 3.7 image back on that OEM drive just to know I could, per my gathered knowledge from here. I've only done that once. Tuner failure caused that UTV to be tossed.


I agree with you stating that I've never had a problem downloading the OS from the MSN servers. I have found this quicker then tearing down my PC set-up and performing the update/install manually.


That being said, I recently accessed my MSN account from my most recently upgraded UTV with-out a hitch. 1st attempt in 4+ years by the way. It also upgraded to 3.8 on its own after a new HD install, before I tried to access my MSN account. My MSN info was not stored locally on a paticular UTV.


I wonder why your info was?


Is this a new discovery between the differences of a Sony board .vs a RCA board?
 
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