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Please STOP saying that DVDs can look like HD!

5024 Views 92 Replies 46 Participants Last post by  Rockyy
Hi all,


I am sorry but I felt absolutely compelled to write this post. And I don’t post often. I am more of a listener than a talker.


I am writing this because I have seen SO many people claim that DVD’s with great scaling/upsampling or via an HTPC and dear old FFDSHOW can meet or even (God help) beat HDTV!


The most recent claim was made yesterday on this forum, by Ash. While I have the utmost respect for Ash and clearly share his excitement at discovering a whole new way to enjoy watching DVDs on his awesome Sony Qualia, I have to completely disagree with his claim that DVDs now look “as good if not better than HDTVâ€.


Everyone, please understand this. DVDs have a resolution of only 720x480 (or 720x576 for PAL). This is a joke compared to the 1920x1080 resolution for HD! You are effectively comparing or should I say that claiming that something with a 0.3 MegaPixel resolution is as good if not better than something with a 2 MegaPixel resolution!


There is NO WAY this is mathematically possible! I agree that these days, DVDs are mastered beautifully from Hi-Def masters, with little edge enhancement and beautiful overall transfers, BUT regardless, once you reduce that 1920x1080 master to a pitifully small 720x480 size, information or detail is LOST! Forever! There is no way to get it back! Even a million years from now, there cannot be technology to get that lost information back! It is mathematically impossible!


Yeah you see it on stupid TV shows where people can enlarge a CC TV image to catch a criminal! But that’s Hollywood crap for you!


Sure HDTV is in its infancy and there are many artifacts associated with MPEG-2 encoding at 1080i like macroblocking. BUT even now, it still has a LOT, LOT more detail than any DVD!


Those who make this ludicrous claim that “DVDs are now as good or better than HD†are clearly very excited to watch DVDs like never before, or more likely watching from too far a distance. The eye can resolve only so much. If one was to watch from a certain distance, even VHS or 160x120 would look no different from 1920x1080.


For each distance there is a limit of a certain resolution that is perceivable. Maybe some can provide a formula where one can calculate the maximum resolution the eye can resolve at a given distance.


If this is the case, namely that you are sitting to far or your screen is too smal, then fine you don’t need Hi-Def. But please don’t claim that DVD’s look like Hi-Def!


Furthermore I would like to add one additional point. And this is very important and the reason I am writing this post.


All these claims by people here that “DVDs look as good as Hi-Defâ€, not to mention all those DVD players that upsample DVDs to “Hi-Def†and by their marketing department “fool people into thinking they magically turn DVDs into Hi-Defâ€, are sending a very BAD message to everyone.


1) The average Joe thinks that it is possible for DVDs to turn into Hi-Def with the right equipment. And cheap too!


2) The studios think that we are very happy with the quality of DVDs and we simply don’t need HD-DVDs.


So from the studio’s point of view, this means that “WHY THE HELL BRING OUT HD-DVD?†for if we, the ultimate connoisseurs see no need or desire for HD-DVDs then what chance has poor old average Joe has?


So PLEASE S-T-O-P making these ridiculous and bogus claims!


STOP!


Thank you for your time.
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Perhaps those making these claims don't watch much HDTV - because they aren't even close. Agreed!!
I just had the opportunity to compare the final scene of Seabiscuit, the DVD version versus the HD version from HBO, both played on the oft-vaunted HTPC, including the absolutely latest version of TheaterTek. On a Qualia.


Absolutely... no... contest.


That is, UNLESS the occasional compression artifact bugs you so much that you'd rather have less detail instead.


Once HD-DVD and Blu-Ray come around, there will be no such qualification.
Quote:
Originally posted by Leica
This is a joke compared to the 1920x1080 resolution for HD!
Just wanted to mention that unfortunately DIRECTV is pretty much sending us 1280x1080i. And at close to or under some DVD bitrates in some cases. I still agree in general, though.


--Darin
The artifacts will be a non-issue with HD-DVD... With Cable/Satellite the bandwith is limited to 20Mbps or so...
Quote:
Originally posted by Leica
The artifacts will be a non-issue with HD-DVD... With Cable/Satellite the bandwith is limited to 20Mbps or so...
I don't think the bandwidth is as much of a problem as the fact that artifacts (like macroblocking) just come and go with broadcasts. With HD-DVD and BluRay they would go back and fix a lot of this stuff up before finishing the mastering process. Otherwise they would/will get trashed for having the same artifact that people can just jump right to and discuss.


--Darin
Hear hear... While it is very nice to get fantastic upsampling for DVDs where there is no hidef version available, I will ALWAYS choose the hidef version if it exists anywhere, whether satellite or DVHS (or BluRay or HD-DVD).


I believe in this basic principle so much that I expect to have AT LEAST one of EACH bluRay and HD-DVD machine, so that I'm not stymied by the movie company alliances.


I'll take HiDef however I can get it!
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Peer
Perhaps those making these claims don't watch much HDTV - because they aren't even close. Agreed!!
I'll have to disagree here. If you watch a movie in HD and upconverted to 1080, yes the HD source will be better (unless perhaps you're a DirecTV customer--I don't know).


But there are a lot of DVDs out there, that upconverted to 1080, look just as good, if not better, than some of the stuff the networks pass off as HD (I'm thinking West Wing or some of the Fox early season NFL games).


So when comparing different material, an upconverted DVD can look better than some HD.


BTW, not sure why this is in this forum. There have been other threads on this recently where most of the posters agreed with my position. Maybe the posters in this forum are different? ;)
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Well, Alias, 24 and Jay Leno just to mention 3 shows I watch on occasion look way better over Comcast cable at 720p via component then the best Superbit titles via SDI through a scaler. If it is true HDTV - there isn't any comparison. Even on the XGA projector - never mind the 720p one. The DVD's come close for a few seconds from time to time in ideal shots ( close ups ) but that's about it!
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Grant
I just had the opportunity to compare the final scene of Seabiscuit, the DVD version versus the HD version from HBO, both played on the oft-vaunted HTPC, including the absolutely latest version of TheaterTek. On a Qualia.


Absolutely... no... contest.


That is, UNLESS the occasional compression artifact bugs you so much that you'd rather have less detail instead.


Once HD-DVD and Blu-Ray come around, there will be no such qualification.
No doubt HD will look better. But also keep in mind that TT 2.1 is very soft -so much so that Andrew is releasing a patch to correct it.
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I agree that I'm just not getting where one can credibly make comments that DVD looks as good as or worse yet ,beats HD ?


However Direct TV is just the worst POS lately. I have a copy of Terminator from HDNet movies over Dish and Terminator from HDNet Movies over Direct TV.


Here is a nice screen shot of Arnold if you can make him out.This is what direct TV calls HD.


The same film over Dish also from HDNet movies has no blocking at all.
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Indeed there are some fine looking DVDs but I agree with the following:

Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
I'm just not getting where one can credibly make comments that DVD looks as good as or worse yet ,beats HD ?
lately high quality dvd's are a very rare find.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Pease
lately high quality dvd's are a very rare find.
Amen to that!:eek: I also just wanted to add that everyone always seems to talk ONLY about pixel resolution when talking about HD. But there is simply just more to it than that - namely color resolution. The color space difference btw the two is why I think that HD movies stand out more than DVD movies.


My Infocus 4805 is a great example to compare the two. Sure it does not display "true" pixel resolution HD and downscales to DVD resolution - but it does display the increased color resolution. Thus on a 480p DVD (I say 480p b/c of Faroudja DCDi) vs 480p downconverted HD - HD will be far superior to the DVD simply because of its high color resolution.


And of course, more pixels doesn't really hurt either - hehe!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Pease
lately high quality dvd's are a very rare find.
If you are talking about the quality of the content then I can't really comment on that as it is up to each person's taste. However, I have felt the opposite about the mastered quality of DVDs. We've had some great ones that people would have been jumping up and down about a few years ago. For instance, ROTK:EE, Chronicles of Riddick, Shark Tales, and The Incredibles is said to be a great upcoming disk. I'm sure there are others. If people think that DVD quality has gotten worse I bet some of it is from watching HD and getting spoiled. I also think that some of the nice DVD transfers we have gotten and will be getting can be attributed partially to new masters to get ready for HD-DVD and/or BluRay releases.


--Darin
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DVDs can look like HD!!

DVDs can look like HD!!


DVDs can look like HD!!


DVDs can look like HD!!


Sorry I just had to do that, just wish I could have done it earlier.


Scott

PS. I do agree though, there is no contest.
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While I understand what you're trying to say, you may as well have named this thread "Please STOP posting your opinion!"
I think there are a couple of things that need to be qualified here. First of all you guys are watching DVDs on large screens which will magnify the quality difference between DVD and HD. I am still watching on my puny 55" RPTV(basement dedicated HT is in the design phase). I think that people compare good upscaled DVD to HD because there is really nothing else to compare it to. That being said, comparing DVD to HD is an apples to oranges comparison, although I just watched 5th Element Ultimate Edition upscaled from my TVIX to 1080i over component and it is without a doubt the finest non HD live action picture I have ever seen on my set and I have 300+ DVDs. I actually called my wife into the room to have her look at it with me. This DVD in MY SETUP does indeed compare favorably to some of the better HD transfers I have seen on HBOHD and StarzHD.


P.S. This is the greatest forum on the planet. I have been lurking for a couple of years and have learned much. This community's knowledge, camaraderie, and willingness to help others is inspirational and I thank you all.


Jim


/first....post....ever
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Even though I do watch a fair amount of that lowly DirecTV in HD (as well as a lot of OTA HD), I think the proof to me is that since I got my HD DirecTivo I can hardly remember the last time I watched one of my hundreds of DVD's. The proof is in the pudding.
I stopped watching DVDs 14 months ago, I just can't stand them anymore.


After all the hype about the Teranex, I got a demo at home, and was ready to get one if it allowed to close the gap between HD and DVDs.


It was not even close...
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