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Hi all,

I have yet to hear an SACD but am a little interested, I tend to listen to all my CD's in (PLII Music) over just stereo, I dont notice any major sonic changes by doing this that alot of the 2ch purists talk about and I really like the surround effect it gives the music.

My question is, does the PLII music mode have any kind of similarities in the sound dispersion to your speakers that you get with SACD?
 

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Depends on the mix, but when its well done, aggressive SACD (or DVDA) multichannel mixes are much much better than PLII


check out the other threads for recommendations - but when you get one you can compare the discrete multichannel mixes against PLII


I think you'll be blown away by the mixes on Dark Side, Avalon and Brothers in Arms
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan76n /forum/post/12903998


Hi all,

I have yet to hear an SACD but am a little interested, I tend to listen to all my CD's in (PLII Music) over just stereo, I dont notice any major sonic changes by doing this that alot of the 2ch purists talk about and I really like the surround effect it gives the music.

My question is, does the PLII music mode have any kind of similarities in the sound dispersion to your speakers that you get with SACD?

PLIIx can certainly create a pleasant effect on some recordings, but the results will vary. SACD, on the other hand, will provide discrete information in each channel and will anchor the instruments or hall effects.


I have both, but prefer SACD by a long shot.
 

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Comparing Pro-logic to DD/DTS should give you an approximation of the difference, but it will be even greater with SACD vs CD.
 

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Apples and oranges. One is based on the artistry of a human, the other is based on the artistry of a human going through logic servos.


At least with Penteo, we're able to separate out the discrete layers and put them back in the original stereo mixer's desired soundfield, in the same exact location that he originally panned it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenteoSurround /forum/post/12908626


Apples and oranges.

Agreed.


Or maybe apples to avocados.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan76n /forum/post/12903998


My question is, does the PLII music mode have any kind of similarities in the sound dispersion to your speakers that you get with SACD?

It does have some similarities, to the extent that you are hearing the music in surround. Depending on the mixes, there may be some difference between hearing the 2-channel track in surround vs hearing the discrete multi-channel track.


For example: lots of music mixers still use the front L/R channel for sounds that they want to image in the centre of the soundstage. This will be different from PLII, where centrally imaged sounds actually come from the centre speaker.


Another difference is in the agressiveness of the surrounds. PLII extraction tends to yield a more ambient listening experience. With discrete multi-channel, mixers sometimes place very distinct effects in the surround channels (sometimes exciting, sometimes distracting).


Finally, surround processing such as PLII and LOGIC7 give you adjustable parameters to customize the results to your particular tastes: as subtle or as wild as you want. I've run into multi-channel recordings that were distracting enough that I ended up preferring the 2-channel version in surround.


Sanjay
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/12909177


For example: lots of music mixers still use the front L/R channel for sounds that they want to image in the centre of the soundstage. This will be different from PLII, where centrally imaged sounds actually come from the centre speaker.

For motion picture work in Penteo, most of my deployment has been with discrete centers, but no rears. The front left channel has discrete left, the center discrete center, and the right discrete right. It recreates the headphone experience with a firm center.
 

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C'mon, guys. The difference between applying PLII or PLIIx and SACD is HUGE.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/12909705


C'mon, guys. The difference between applying PLII or PLIIx and SACD is HUGE.

Certainly no argument there. I think the only point is that taking a 2 channel source and running it through PLIIx can produce (for some recordings), a pleasant approximation of what a true discrete system can do. It is, however, only an approximation.


I remember back in the 70's the first experiement I did with connecting 1 speaker behind me using the 2 "+" terminals of an amplifier to extract the "difference" signal (Dynaco actually made a little "black box" that would do that a little more safely).


I remember playing Judy Collins' "Whales and Nightengales" and actually heard whale songs behind me. Talk about getting hooked on surround! When SACD and DVD-A were first introduced, it seemed like a dream come true. It is truly sad the state those are in today.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr /forum/post/12910334


Certainly no argument there. I think the only point is that taking a 2 channel source and running it through PLIIx can produce (for some recordings), a pleasant approximation of what a true discrete system can do. It is, however, only an approximation.

sorry guys, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but you're in my territory now:

If you want to hear what you CAN do from a classic stereo mix, check out the mono component sound samples at http://www.penteosurround.com/soundsamples.htm


We do it every day.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenteoSurround /forum/post/12910477


sorry guys, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but you're in my territory now:

If you want to hear what you CAN do from a classic stereo mix, check out the mono component sound samples at http://www.penteosurround.com/soundsamples.htm


We do it every day.

That's great (I guess), but how can I listen to some samples that aren't "teased apart" like that?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenteoSurround /forum/post/12909478


For motion picture work in Penteo, most of my deployment has been with discrete centers, but no rears.

That's understandable, since movie mixers have no problem placing centre imaged sounds in the centre channel. Music mixers are starting to do the same, but many still phantom their centre content in the front L/R channels. I guess old habits die hard.
Quote:
It recreates the headphone experience with a firm center.

It does more than that, at least on the couple of Penteo discs you mailed me many moons ago. There were a couple of improvements I noticed right away with your derived centre signals compared to the 2-channel version. Lead instruments and vocals had rock-solid imaging, no matter where I sat on my couch.


But even from the sweet spot, there was an improvement. We never hear the human voice as a dual-mono, comb-filtering, phantom-imaged source in real life. So why reproduce it that way at home? The vocals in the Penteo samples mimicked how I would have heard the singer if she had been in the room with me: mono, point source, pressurizing the air directly in front of me. No phantom image can do that.


Sanjay
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold /forum/post/12904002


Depends on the mix, but when its well done, aggressive SACD (or DVDA) multichannel mixes are much much better than PLII

Let me say something different:


Depends on the mix, but when its well done, acoustically correct and traditional SACD (or DVDA) multichannel mixes are much much better than PLII
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/12910916


That's understandable, since movie mixers have no problem placing centre imaged sounds in the centre channel. Music mixers are starting to do the same, but many still phantom their centre content in the front L/R channels. I guess old habits die hard. It does more than that, at least on the couple of Penteo discs you mailed me many moons ago. There were a couple of improvements I noticed right away with your derived centre signals compared to the 2-channel version. Lead instruments and vocals had rock-solid imaging, no matter where I sat on my couch.


But even from the sweet spot, there was an improvement. We never hear the human voice as a dual-mono, comb-filtering, phantom-imaged source in real life. So why reproduce it that way at home? The vocals in the Penteo samples mimicked how I would have heard the singer if she had been in the room with me: mono, point source, pressurizing the air directly in front of me. No phantom image can do that.


Sanjay

Thanks! I couldn't agree more!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/12910595


That's great (I guess), but how can I listen to some samples that aren't "teased apart" like that?

Um... start a record company to license the masters and let me issue them as 5.1 compilations... They're sure not gonna do it anytime soon.. :)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/12910595


That's great (I guess), but how can I listen to some samples that aren't "teased apart" like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PenteoSurround /forum/post/12912949


Um... start a record company to license the masters and let me issue them as 5.1 compilations... They're sure not gonna do it anytime soon.. :)

I thought you already had some discs (or some sort of media) available that demonstrate your process's capabilities.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/12914362


I thought you already had some discs (or some sort of media) available that demonstrate your process's capabilities.

I have many. Can you burn a CD from a file and then play it back on a DTS-capable 5.1 player?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenteoSurround /forum/post/12918601


I have many. Can you burn a CD from a file and then play it back on a DTS-capable 5.1 player?

Absomahlutely
 
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