[djironic]

So after discovering that, despite an otherwise incredible picture, the Denon 1910's macroblocking and jitter issues just won't work with my Hitachi 51s700 display, I decided to continue my search for a great player, and the 2900 came highly recommended by everyone on this forum.


At first, it seemed to live up to some of the hype. After configuring using AVIA tools, I had a very nice looking picture on a couple of reference quality DVDs, including one of the best displays of Matrix Reloaded I've seen. But then I moved to some lesser quality DVDs (Sleepy Hollow and Jurassic Park), and I was apalled at the deinterlacing. On Sleepy Hollow, many scenes showed a "flicker"-type effect with the deinterlacing (blurred on one frame, jagged the next). On Jurassic Park, not only were there jaggies everywhere, but any edge enhancement was brought out in stark relief. It was so bad that I actually turned progressive scan off and relied on the Hitachi's deinterlacer. I could barely tell the difference. I ran the static zone plate on AVIA it showed quite a bit of moire (moving lines), which is weird for a static image, so it seems the deinterlacing isn't working quite right.


I know it's not just the TV as none of this happens with the 1910 over DVI - it's deinterlacing is smooth as glass. Is it really possible that such a highly touted DVD player as the 2900 has these kinds of picture problems?


One more problem - the YC Delay test on the AVIA shows that I have about .1 microsecond negative YC Delay across the channels (the color bar YC Delay test also showed delay). It would certainly help explain why edge enhancement is exaggerated. Is the AVIA disk accurate - is there really noticeable YC Delay on such a highly regarded player? Did I get a faulty one and should I try again? Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks...

 

[umr]

Did you use the correct settings. I think they are...


Squeeze Mode - Off

Progressive - Mode 1

Video Mode - Film

Video Out - Progressive

 

[djironic]

Quote:

Originally posted by umr Did you use the correct settings. I think they are... Squeeze Mode - Off Progressive - Mode 1 Video Mode - Film Video Out - Progressive

There is no Video Mode, but otherwise I have all the settings you mentioned (though I did turn off progressive temporarily in order to compare to the deinterlacer in the Hitachi). I've also made sure that the Hitachi's deinterlacer is off when the player output is 480p to avoid any interference.


I've gone through every setting I can think of and nothing seems to improve the quality. It's too bad - I really wanted to like this player as much as everyone else does! I feel like I'm left out of the party...


Could it be using a component signal vs. the DVI signal? It's the only thing I can think that would make the difference in deinterlacing between the 2900 and the 1910 (or that the new Faroudja chip is a whole lot better than Silicon Graphics - doesn't seem likely). Maybe I'll test the 1910 on component 480p tonight...

 

[umr]

The Hitachi's scaler could also be poor. You may also have something set wrong on your TV.

 

[djironic]

I've heard elsewhere that the scaler on Hitachi televisions is actually very good, so I don't know if it's the scaler. Though I do remember reading a while back (I think it was on CNET) that the Hitachi sets would sometimes have difficulty with 480p signals, possibly related to the fact that it scales the image to 540p/1080i. I remember the review suggested using a 480i signal in these situations, which would totally suck since I wouldn't be able to take advantage of the high-end deinterlacing.


Maybe that's why the 1080i signal from the 1910 is significantly more clean.


Has anyone else experienced problems feeding a 480p signal to a Hitachi RP CRT?

 

[Kris Deering]

Paul Taatjes, one of our writers, has this exact same setup. The Hitachi RPTV and Denon 2900. The image quality is very good and neither of us have seen issues with this combination at his house.

 

[djironic]

Thanks for the help, Kris. Least I know that my setup works for some people. Doesn't help me, but maybe I can get this figured out by process of elimination! ;-)


Back to the drawing board for me... :-(

 

[dpippel]

It's certainly possible that you have a defective 2900. On my Hitachi 57SWX20B the 2900 produces a stunning 480p component image with none of the issues you describe, and no Y/C delay. Combing and softness on the titles you listed are definitely not normal and sound like deinterlacing artifacts. One thing you might want to do is watch the front panel display on the player during these glitches. It will display an "F" or a "V" to the right of the time block to indicate if it's in Film or Video mode. If you notice it going back and forth between modes frequently then it's a problem.


And you're right about the scaler in the Hitachi. It's considered to be very good, although I do believe that your model has a different one than the scaler in the SWX/TWX/XWX displays.

 

[djironic]

Quote:

Originally posted by umr The Hitachi's scaler could also be poor. You may also have something set wrong on your TV.

Okay, umr, you were right - it's the scaler on the Hitachi. Good call. With the Denon 2900, I noticed a "flicker" on the top and bottom curves of the concentric circles on the static zone plate pattern on the AVIA DVD. However, the flicker went away when I switched the scaling on the TV from 1080i to 540p - definitely indicates something isn't 100% with the scaler at 1080i. I still have the Denon 1910, so I tested the 1910 (set to 1080i) on the same pattern - no flicker whatsoever. So I take it the Denon's scaler is better than the Hitachi (go figure). I also noticed significantly less artifacting on the moving zone plate pattern on the 1910.


So I'm thinking I'll return the 2900 and try for the 2910 - I'm hoping for a good combination of the incredible color detail (it really is amazing) on the 2900 and the smooth picture of the 1910.


Incidentally, I still can't tell the difference between the 480p and the 480i signal on the 2900, which is disappointing. I'm wondering if I will regret having bought a Hitachi television...

 

[djironic]

Quote:

Originally posted by dpippel Combing and softness on the titles you listed are definitely not normal and sound like deinterlacing artifacts. One thing you might want to do is watch the front panel display on the player during these glitches. It will display an "F" or a "V" to the right of the time block to indicate if it's in Film or Video mode. If you notice it going back and forth between modes frequently then it's a problem. And you're right about the scaler in the Hitachi. It's considered to be very good, although I do believe that your model has a different one than the scaler in the SWX/TWX/XWX displays.

Thanks for the tip. I checked it out - the 2900 is in video mode while I'm skipping chapters, but switches to film a few seconds into each chapter and stays there, so that's not causing a problem. It looks like the picture is overly sharp and highlighting artifacts - I've turned off any edge enhancement settings and reduced the sharpness, but if I turn the sharpness down any farther, it just gets muddy. I noticed because the 1910 has much softer picture without being muddy, which is why the artifacts and EE don't show up nearly as much. Any thoughts?


I have another question about YC Delay - could the TV be causing it, or is just a function of the player? I ask because I notice YC Delay on the 1910 over DVI at 1080i (as well as on the 2900). I thought YC Delay was a component video issue, but here I see it on DVI. However, when I switch to 720p output on the 1910, the YC Delay disappears. I'm thinking that means my TV is causing it. Any insights here would be appreciated!

 

[umr]

djironic,


Y/C delay can come from the TV and/or the player. Some devices will only show it with one resolution. My LG HD STB has Y/C delay on either 720p or 1080i over DVI I don't remember which. My Samsung HD STB did not have it on either resolution.

 

[djironic]

I may have missed it in the owner's manual, but the 2900 doesn't have a YC Delay adjustment, does it? Would an ISF calibration (not done yet on my set) fix the YC Delay? I'm also wondering if it's not just inherent to the set since it shows up only in certain situations. If it is, I guess I'll just have to return the 2900 and hope for the best with a 2910 or another player...

 

[ArchieGates]

My 2900 is working great with my Sony GWIII XBR950. I haven't noticed any of the issues you mentioned.


Pick up some SACD's or DVD-A's and you won't want to trade it in for a 2910!

 

[Kris Deering]

Okay thougth I would share some more stuff.


First off, the Hitachi set has Y/C delay. It is an inherent issue. Paul's had the same thing but you can fix it in the service menus. As for your scaling, you were scaling up to 1080i, which was a mistake. Your TV was getting a 480P signal from a great de-interlacer and you were scaling it up and then re-interlacing the signal. Bad ju ju. Leave it at 540P and you should be fine.


DO NOT USE any of the picture adjustment tools on the DVD player. Other then setting the black output to 0 IRE, you should not mess with anything else. I highly recommend having your TV professionally calibrated by an ISF tech.

 

[umr]

You may find this links useful if you want to tweak your TV.

http://www.homecentric.com/forums/post-188.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...67#post3056767

http://www.homecentric.com/forums/about28.html

http://www.homecentric.com/forums/post-189.html

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/brand...achi_tips.html

 

[Joe Murphy Jr]

How do you check the DVD2900 for the firmware version in use? And what is the latest firmware version?

 

[dpippel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr How do you check the DVD2900 for the firmware version in use? And what is the latest firmware version?

The Search function would easily answer your question, as it's been asked too many times to count, but here you go anyway:


* Power the player off with the front panel switch.

* Simultaneously hold down the PLAY and OPEN buttons on the front panel.

* Power the player back on with the front panel switch and release the PLAY and OPEN buttons.

* The display will show the PLAY and PAUSE icons.

* Use the MENU button on the remote to scroll through the 3 firmware component version numbers.

* Power the player OFF then ON to return to normal operations.


The most current DVD-2900 firmware version levels are:


DRV 030827

B/E 6237W

PANEL 6236K

 

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Appreciate your reply. Many thanks!


I know a search would eventually get me to the answer, but since the DVD29000 as a current topic is here, I knew someone would have the answer and help me out with a quick response. Guess I was right and I do appreciate you doing so.

 

[djironic]

Alright, after doing much more exhaustive research through this forum, it seems that the concensus is that, for those individuals who own TVs without the ability to display native 480p signals (like my Hitachi), the deinterlacing abilities of the DVD player don't matter since the signal is going to go through the TV's conversion anyway. So getting the latest Faroudja chip or Silicon Graphics chip doesn't make much of a difference - you just need a player with good 480i output. In which case, I may just keep my old Sony 480i player.


Or there is one other possibility. The exception, it seems to me, is in 1080i DVI. Therefore, I'm going to try the Denon 2910 at 1080i to see if I can bypass the Hitachi scaler/deinterlacer and thereby take advantage of the Faroudja deinterlacer. Will keep you updated on the latest developments...

 

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Actually, no. Before any scaling can be done, a signal must be deinterlaced first. The better deinterlacing that's carried out, the better the image that scaling will create. This is the reason that the great deinterlacing chips are sought after in DVD players.


Here's the deal with 1080i, regardless of where it's done. With a 480i DVD signal, deinterlacing takes this to 480p and then it is scaled to 1080p. The way that 1080i is accomplished is by reinterlacing that 1080p signal. So you need to realize that even if you use a 1080i signal via DVI to your display, it has to be deinterlaced in the DVD player before it leaves to your display.