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PrePro: New Models versus Used High-End?

2133 Views 15 Replies 8 Participants Last post by ddean, Nov 4, 2004

JohnH

Discussion Starter · Oct 22, 2004

I am in the market for a pre/pro and am struggling with all the choices. I have a pretty simple system, and am really focused on sound quality instead of all the latest features. I have a pretty wide budget, looking to spend $1,500 to $3,000 (but hoping to be around $2,000). I have Triad Gold speakers and Parasound amps. I have a 5.1 system and will not likely need 7.1 due to room constraints. PLiix is thus not a priority. I would value the following features:

variable crossover on all speakers; upgradeability; lip synch delay, multichannel analog in, 1394 digital in, room correction, component video switching, multiroom (in order of priority)

I am trying to decide if I should focus on newer models, such as the Rotel 1068, Sherwood P965, Cary Cinema 6, Anthem AVM20/30, Sunfire TGIV, Audio Refinement .

Or, would a used Proceed AVP2, Tag 32R 192bp, Krell Showcase, Meridian 568, EAD Theatermaster, Integra RDC7, McIntosh MX132, or other model provide superior sound quality that they would be a better choice?

I have already demo'd a AVM20 in my system, and I was impressed but not blown away. I thought movies were outstanding but music (particularly the analog bypass) was not quite what I was expecting. I did not have a lot of time to dial it in and use all of its setup capabilities, which could explain the results.

I am also currently looking closely at a Sunfire TGIII which seems to have most of the features I want, good reviews, and can be had at a very good price. Does anyone know which DSP and DAC's it uses and if they were changed in the TGIV?

Ideally I would like to audition everything in my home but that is going to be very difficult, especially on the used models.

Thanks in advance for all replies.

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1 - 16 of 16 Posts

texaspledge

· #2 · Oct 22, 2004

If music and an analog bypass is your main focus, you may want to take the same route I did and buy used. All the new models you list are excellent performers from what I hear but there really haven't been any great advances in terms of analog preamps in the last few years. These new models are more expensive because of the newer surround sound tech mostly.

If you are happy with 5.1 HT, there are many options out there for less than the new state of the art HT preamps.

Also consider going with a separate preamp with a HT bypass if you will only be using 2 channel. Many of us end up going that way after much buying and selling. The fact you have said you weren't so crasy about the AVM20 (a highly regarded unit) makes me think you may be hard to satisfy. Or, it could be some setup options.

Either way, I would definitely recommend demoing in your own home and fiddling with the setup a lot. It can make huge differences. Or, at least with used stuff, you can ofter buy and sell on Audiogon or EBay and not lose much as long as you are careful and don't pay too much for the unit in the first place.

Hope that helps.

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JohnH

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 22, 2004

Thanks for the post. What did you end up choosing/keeping from the used market? As far as the AVM20, I have read all of the great reviews on it and may have set my expectations too high. I would still give it very high marks, but it just seemed to be missing a little from the best I have heard in other systems (McIntosh MX134, Krell HTS 7.1, etc.). It may be that I am hoping for something that is realistically out of my price range.

texaspledge

· #4 · Oct 22, 2004

My decision was based mostly on the fact I had a 2 channel SACD/CD player that I wanted to keep (Sony SCD-333ES). This meant a great analog 2 channel only bypass was necessary. I ended up buying a Citation 7.0. This is a great example of a preamp that was critically acclaimed at pure 2 channel stereo and some would argue still can't be bettered when you consider that they now cost around $350 used. It had one major drawback though, no 5.1. Luckily I found one with a MSB 5.1 channel bypass upgrade and I hooked a Sony TA-E9000ES to it. The Sony 9000 was another highly regarded HT processor with the failing of no analog bypass. IMHO, for 5.1 with it's extensive setup tweaks (all channel EQ and cutoffs which is still not that common) this is still an outstanding processor.

Paid $500 for the Citation with MSB upgrade.

Paid $500 for the 9000 with full 5 year warranty.

My system has never sounded so good. As a HUGE plus, the Citation turned me from a 2 channel music fan into a surround music fan with it's 6-Axis surround. It's really been fun listening to this piece.

I went through the following: Sig 2.0, Adcom 830, Myryad MDP500, Audio Ref PreDSP2 and Pioneer Elite 45TX before I got to this setup. If I had it to do over again I would likely have either bought a McCormack MAP1 (I think that's right, it's their 5 channel preamp) and used a good universal DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player connected to it's 5.1 inputs OR looked at a Lexicon, Theta or EAD unit. These are guys that have committed fully to the digital realm and I have heard excel in music. I would have also listed the Anthem on that list also though!

You may want to check out an EAD theatermaster Signature or Ovationplus as a top choice for used. I have a couple of friends that just love their stuff for music. I can't recall ever hearing anything less than a great review of EAD when it comes to music reproduction.

Also try the Audio Refinement piece. It's a great no frills preamp that does 2 channel music well. If you ended up liking it, it would save you a lot of money even when buying new.

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JohnH

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 22, 2004

Sounds like you have ended up with a great set up! I was already planning to check out Audio Refinement this afternoon. I guess that would be a sub $1,500 piece at full retail which would be a bargain if the sound quality is high. I did check out the McCormack MAP1 and loved it, but I just felt uncomfortable with an all analog unit given the trends with everything going digital (plus, my high def cable box only has a digital multichannel out). I guess theres a compromise with everything. I do want to hear the EAD unit too.

Kal Rubinson

· #6 · Oct 22, 2004

The Audio Refinement is a very nice unit but it is, clearly, a stereo preamp with the MCH added on. For example, it lacks the levelling control facilities of the MAP-1 or other analog MCH preamps.

http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...ic/index1.html

Kal

filecat13

· #7 · Oct 23, 2004

Low noise floor, excellent analog bypass, flexibility, and heritage are all shared by the Citation 7.0 (mentioned above), the newer Citation 5.0, and the even newer Fosgate Audionics FAP T1. The Citation 5.0 will have more modern HT modes than the 7.0, but it retains the 6-Axis feature of the 7.0. The FAP T1 will give you most of the up-to-date HT modes (including PLII but not PLIIx) with Cirrus Extended Surround for full 7.1 utilization.

The heritage factor in each unit is Jim Fosgate, who was the brains behind 6-Axis and the creator of PLII. He's also a great mixture of surround sound guru/innovator/visionary and old fashioned purist. (Check out his FAP V1: http://fosgateaudionics.com/products/FAP-V1.asp )

All three units can be had used, with the Citation 7.0 usually going for $500 or less, the Citation 5.0 for $700 or less, and the FAP T1 for $1000 or less. You can sometimes pick up a brand new FAP T1 for $1200-1300 on an online auction site. You know its name.

HTCrazy

· #8 · Oct 31, 2004

Just to chime in about the Cary, it really sounds fantastic with 2 channel music OR multichannel. And it also has two sets of 7 channel bypass that you can use for 2 channel, SACD or DVD-A. In its price range based on sonics alone, you can't beat it.

dsmith901

· #9 · Nov 1, 2004

I too have a modified Citation 7.0 as the main controller in my system, and I would not sell it for $500 or even $5,000. It is that good on 2 channel. I have come to the conclusion that most current pre/pros are HT first and (analog) music second, and with the possible exception of the Bel Canto PrePro ($6,000) or the Mark Levison No. 40 ($30,000) I don't think any of them would be better than what I have for music. FYI I have owned the Bryston SP-1 and the Lexicon MC-8 and passed on both for the Citation. So upgrading for me will be replacing a H/K AVR520 with something like the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 for my digital sources and HT. For HT (DD/DTS) I don't think there is that much difference in pre/pros, certainly not enough to justify some of the inflated prices out there. So just look for features you need. If you can't find a Citation, I think you may be pleased with the Aragon Soundstage, which is considered outstanding on 2 channel as well, and has DD/DTS built in, but no on-screen display if that matters to you.

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filecat13

· #10 · Nov 1, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by dsmith901
I too have a modified Citation 7.0 as the main controller in my system, and I would not sell it for $500 or even $5,000. It is that good on 2 channel.

You are the champion of the Citation 7.0 on these forums.

Quote:

I have come to the conclusion that most current pre/pros are HT first and (analog) music second,

I'd tend to agree, but would point out that you won't find a guy more passionate about both analog sound and surround sound than Jim Fosgate (well, maybe Charles Wood). Again, the legacy of the 7.0 to the 5.0 to the FAP T1 is pretty clear to me as an erstwhile owner of all three at one time or another. So, as Bill Miller says, "Why can't it be both?"

Quote:

For HT (DD/DTS) I don't think there is that much difference in pre/pros, certainly not enough to justify some of the inflated prices out there. So just look for features you need.

True wisdom here.

Quote:

If you can't find a Citation,

There have been three on eBay recently, selling for ludicrously low prices. Currently (with about an hour left) there's one for well under $200. What a deal for a great analog unit!

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dsmith901

· #11 · Nov 1, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by filecat13

I'd tend to agree, but would point out that you won't find a guy more passionate about both analog sound and surround sound than Jim Fosgate (well, maybe Charles Wood). Again, the legacy of the 7.0 to the 5.0 to the FAP T1 is pretty clear to me as an erstwhile owner of all three at one time or another. So, as Bill Miller says, "Why can't it be both?"

I am not sure how much Fosgate had to do with the analog circuitry on the 7.0. I thought he was mainly responsible for the surround sound decoding circuits. Anyway, I thought I noticed a difference change in SQ from my original 7.0 to a later one I acquired and used while the first went for the MSB mod. The second unit was a later model per the serial number, and perhaps there were a few parts changed, or maybe it was just in less than pristine shape than the modded unit. Anyway, the later model seemed ever so slightly less transparent compared to the first. Even so it still sounded very good. But it has been sold.

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Andy Lammer

· #12 · Nov 1, 2004

The features you seek will not exist on any of the older high-end pre/pros you listed. Nor do they all exist on most of the newer ones either !

I have gone through many pre/pros and very high-end 2-channel CDPs & DACs & Pre's. I got tired of all that gear & cabling and obsessing, and have "simplified" by relying solely on an EAD 8800-Pro.

I do insert a Monarchy DIP Upsampler between my CD Transport & EAD, and another Monarchy DIP from my DVD player ( 50' away ) & EAD. I unregrettably have spent good money on PLCs & power cords & vibration control, and am exceptionally happy with the sonic outcome of my system.

- Andy

filecat13

· #13 · Nov 1, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by dsmith901
I am not sure how much Fosgate had to do with the analog circuitry on the 7.0. I thought he was mainly responsible for the surround sound decoding circuits. Anyway, I thought I noticed a difference change in SQ from my original 7.0 to a later one I acquired and used while the first went for the MSB mod. The second unit was a later model per the serial number, and perhaps there were a few parts changed, or maybe it was just in less than pristine shape than the modded unit. Anyway, the later model seemed ever so slightly less transparent compared to the first. Even so it still sounded very good. But it has been sold.

Or maybe it was just nostalgia. They say you never forget your first one...

ddean

· #14 · Nov 2, 2004

I'm actually quite happy with the 2ch bypass on the Bryston SP1.7. It's at least as good, if not better, than the Theta Casablanca (original). Bryston is also very much still in business, and the 20 year warranty (from date of build) is transferable.... About $3K used on Audiogon (MSRP $4700). I'm not as happy with its 2ch digital performance, and so have augmented it with a MSB platinum DAC.

The Bryston 6ch analog passthrough is fine, but not as special as the 2ch. It's different circuitry, so there's a rational explanation (no voodoo).

Drew Dean

Andy Lammer

· #15 · Nov 2, 2004

ddean:

Off Topic. I have had the MSB Platinum DAC too, and the SP-1.7, but not at the same time. I found the MSB's dynamics & detail top-notch. That baby has lots of "drive" from its analog outputs . Have you tried using it with a passive pre like the Placette instead of via the SP-1.7's analog bypass? I personally did not like the Bryston's analog bypass on my SP-1.7 as it really crushed the sonics when I fed my Wadia 27ix through it, compared to running the Wadia direct to amps. Mind you, my SP-1.7 was an upgrade from an SP-1 and the buyer of my SP-1.7 sent it to Bryston for some internal upgrade that was available or overlooked previously. If you have a chance, you may want to try the MSB with a great passive if opportunity presents itself.

- Andy

ddean

· #16 · Nov 4, 2004

Andy --

I don't own a passive pre-amp, so I can't try your experiment. I do, however, have a Meridian 502 preamp. Last night, in what I thought was going to be a debugging session (long story omitted, and it may yet turn into debugging), I used a signal chain of: MSB to Meridian 502 to Jeff Rowland 201s (all driven balanced). My Piega speakers have never sounded so good -- I was up until 2am listening.

I think the MSB Platinum output (single-ended) is too hot (too high voltage) for the SP1.7 to really be happy. IIRC, the SP1.7 is looking for 2V on its analog ins if you're using the A/D, 4V if you're using the analog bypass, and according to the Stereophile review ( http://www.stereophile.com/digitalso...799/index.html ), the MSB puts out 5V. So the SP1.7 input stage is likely to overload, and probably won't sound so great. As always, read the specs carefully -- these are two fine components that just won't work together optimally.

I don't know about the Wadia's output voltage, but it might be something to check.

Drew Dean

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