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Problem w/BD Players: Deinterlacing and Scaling

4500 Views 30 Replies 17 Participants Last post by Sam S, Jan 17, 2008

Robert Whitehead

Discussion Starter · Jan 13, 2008

There is a problem affecting the vast majority of table-top (not PS3) Blu-ray players and that is inferior deinterlacing and scaling.

This shows up in two ways:

1) Poor Deinterlacing and Upscaling of 1080i Blu-ray DVDs to 1080p; and

2) Poor Deinterlacing and Scaling of 480i DVDs to 1080p.

Kris Deering just reviewed in www.hometheaterhifi.com a

Pioneer and Samsung Blu-ray player and found both terrible on both of the above. He has two more Blu-ray player reviews on the way (probably Sony and Panasonic), and I suspect the results will be the same.

The expensive Denons and Marantz, which use the Reon chip, will not have these problems and, so far as I know, they are the only ones.

Of course there are ways around this : if your rec'r, pre/pro, or projector have a good video solution, you can bypass the inferior ones in the players and use those. Or you can buy an outboard video processor likethe DVDO.

But that is beside the point. Blu-ray is the best video and audio source available now, and probably will be for sometime to come. The players demand a price premium.

The makers of these players should not be building in sub-standard deinterlacers and scalers, usually of their own design, when there are so many excellent video solutions out there: Reon, Realta, ABT; even Faroudja would be a vast improvement over what's in players today, and it's cheap.

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1 - 20 of 31 Posts

PooperScooper

· #2 · Jan 13, 2008

It seems these players use only the Sigma Designs HD processing chip for all video processing. It appears SD DVD performance is lackluster (besides the 1080i60 encode decoding issues). Adding a secondary video processor involves more than just the cost of the part on the BOM and when you're trying to boost margins and reduce player cost it's not surprising they went with the all-in-one solution. Also, if you look at it another way, the HDM players don't really need great SD-DVD playback. Early adopters who recognize the SD-DVD performance differences most likely already have a SD-DVD solution, eg. good player or scaler.

larry

Robert Whitehead

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 13, 2008

Some people want to get rid of their DVD players for a Blu-ray player that will play both Blu-ray and regular DVDs well.

And even IF someone has a separate DVD player, that does NOT resolve the problem of deinterlacing 1080i Blu-ray to 1080P output. All the players (ex. Denon & Marantz) use the bob and weave method for this, and the results are terrible. See Kris Deering's reviews on this point.

I sold a Denon DVD-5910CI for a PS3, and am more than happy with the PS3s deinterlacing and scaling of regular DVDs. I have NOT tried a 1080i Blu-ray DVD in the PS3 to see how it does on deinterlacing 1080i Blu-ray.

PooperScooper

· #4 · Jan 13, 2008

I wasn't saying it's not an issue in the BD players or should be ignored. But the issues aren't going to keep BD players from being "successful". At AVS it's an issue, in overall scheme for BD success it's not. The manufacturers are looking at the bottom line. People who "care" will find a way to deal with the problems until they're solved. That's the point I was trying to make.

I think the only 1080i BD I have is David Gilmour's disc. I can't tell if the PS3 is doing the correct thing or not. There are some issues with the xfer that I see but I think it has more to do with the lighting, etc, not the playback. Closeups and such look great.

larry

JonW747

· #5 · Jan 13, 2008

Interesting problem... where should people be investing in scaling and de-interlacing?

TVs do it, HDMI Receivers do it, Disc players do it, and of course there are stand-alone scalers.

Do we really need to pay for this 3 or 4 times over?

Of course whatever we buy should work without bugs, but upscaling has somehow become a must have feature that will only add to the cost of every piece of video gear.

caesar1

· #6 · Jan 13, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead /forum/post/12797183

There is a problem affecting the vast majority of table-top (not PS3) Blu-ray players and that is inferior deinterlacing and scaling.

This shows up in two ways:

1) Poor Deinterlacing and Upscaling of 1080i Blu-ray DVDs to 1080p; and

2) Poor Deinterlacing and Scaling of 480i DVDs to 1080p.

Kris Deering just reviewed in www.hometheaterhifi.com a

Pioneer and Samsung Blu-ray player and found both terrible on both of the above. He has two more Blu-ray player reviews on the way (probably Sony and Panasonic), and I suspect the results will be the same.

The expensive Denons and Marantz, which use the Reon chip, will not have these problems and, so far as I know, they are the only ones.

Of course there are ways around this : if your rec'r, pre/pro, or projector have a good video solution, you can bypass the inferior ones in the players and use those. Or you can buy an outboard video processor likethe DVDO.

But that is beside the point. Blu-ray is the best video and audio source available now, and probably will be for sometime to come. The players demand a price premium.

The makers of these players should not be building in sub-standard deinterlacers and scalers, usually of their own design, when there are so many excellent video solutions out there: Reon, Realta, ABT; even Faroudja would be a vast improvement over what's in players today, and it's cheap.

Would that likely explain why outputting 1080p from my blu-ray player (Panasonic BD30) to my 720p projector looks better (sharper), then when I output 720p from the blu-ray player to my projector?

In other words, let my projector do the downscaling, rather than the blu-ray player?

I do notice jaggies in text though, (like stair stepping on the side of a capital "A") -- when I output 1080p from the blu-ray player. When I output 720p, the jagggies aren't there, but the picture is slightly less crisp.

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DavidHir

· #7 · Jan 13, 2008

I currently own the BD30 and it's SD DVD performance is poor from subjective viewing and I doubt this unit would pass even one deinterlacing test. I'm considering the Oppo 980 or soon-to-be-released 983. The new Denon 3800 sounds great, but no way in hell I'm spending $2K.

Kage

· #8 · Jan 13, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir /forum/post/12798255

I currently own the BD30 and it's SD DVD performance is poor from subjective viewing and I doubt this unit would pass even one deinterlacing test. I'm considering the Oppo 980 or soon-to-be-released 983. The new Denon 3800 sounds great, but no way in hell I'm spending $2K.

I also own the BD30 and I like the Blu-ray performace on it and the ability to bitstream Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA to my Yamaha RX-V1800. I agree on the BD30's poor dvd performance. I might purchase the Oppo 980 tonight with my refund that I am getting with the noisy PS3.

ADGrant

· #9 · Jan 13, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead /forum/post/12797183

There is a problem affecting the vast majority of table-top (not PS3) Blu-ray players and that is inferior deinterlacing and scaling.

Is the PS3 really much better at deinterlacing and scaling. What firmware version did the Secrets guys use when they tested?

Robert Whitehead

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jan 13, 2008

I think the cardinal rule is that if a maker of any A/V component includes a feature, it should work well. And that is not the case with virtually every Blu-ray player available or announced when it comes to deinterlacing 1080i Blu-ray DVDs to 1080p, or deinterlacing and scaling regular DVDs, or deinterlacing and scaling a 1080p Blu-ray DVD to a lower resolution

It did not cost Samsung or Toshiba that much to add the Reon chip to their players, did it? Why don't others do the same?

Caesar: Yes. The deinterlacer and scaler in your projector is superior to the one in your player.

I omitted the PS3 from this discussion because I was aware of the poor rating it got at Secrets, but I have no idea what Firmware version was used by Kris for the tests.

On the other hand the PS3 has gotten nearly universal accolades at deinterlacing and scaling on this Forum. Numerous posts (including me) have found it superior to the Oppo 981, and two posts (including me) have found it equal to the Denon DVD-5910CI. I can only recall one post critical of its performance in this area.

Because of the Secrets vs. experience conflict, I decided it best to omit the PS3 from this post, as there is no definitive answer to the quality of the PS3 on deinterlacing and scaling.

Finally, the Oppo 980 is a perfect, inexpensive solution to this problem if your rec'r, pre/pro, or proj. has a good video processor, as the 980 is one of the few DVD players to output 480i over HDMI.

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Garman

· #11 · Jan 13, 2008

The S-300 looks decent when compared to my Oppo 981 on a 92" screen. When I have compared the S-300/BD30 and PS3 and Oppo I would put them in this order.

DVD Playback:

PS3

Oppo

S-300

BD30

On Blu-Ray play back it is a different story.

BD30

PS3 about even slight edge to the BD30...

S300

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Jay_Davis

· #12 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADGrant /forum/post/12798458

Is the PS3 really much better at deinterlacing and scaling. What firmware version did the Secrets guys use when they tested?

Yes, the PS3 is very good. Not as good as the Reon, but better than most other things.

dildatonr

· #13 · Jan 14, 2008

I was really hoping for the Sammy 5000 to be a solid machine- because it seems the only semi-affordable company making BR players reon equipped is Samsung. But then you have to have the trade-off of having a very buggy player.

I'm currently pretty frustrated there are no real solid SD/HD solutions on the horizon as far as BR players go. It doesn't kill me to have separates, but I'd prefer one unit.

DigVid

· #14 · Jan 14, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis /forum/post/12810502

Yes, the PS3 is very good. Not as good as the Reon, but better than most other things.

+1 definately!

SirJohnFalstaff

· #15 · Jan 14, 2008

I saw this happening and decided to get a good upconverting DVD player to keep my DS-DVD's off my Blu-ray player. I got a great deal on a Denon DVD-3930CI and can't think I'd be able to get a better SD-DVD player anywhere. Blu-ray and HD-DVD players are good with the disks they're designed for, but I find them lacking in SD-DVD playback and navigation. I like the idea of keeping the formats separate. Maybe in a few years I'll upgrade to an uber Denon that does all formats, but I want the bugs worked out first before I spend $2K on a single deck.

Sam S

· #16 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead /forum/post/12797482

I have NOT tried a 1080i Blu-ray DVD in the PS3 to see how it does on deinterlacing 1080i Blu-ray.

The PS3 does not do any deinterlacing of bluray 1080i content. It just feeds the image right of the decoder. You would have to rely on the deinterlacing of your display. A great resouce to test this is the HQV bluray test disc.

ADGrant

· #17 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead /forum/post/12799492

I

I omitted the PS3 from this discussion because I was aware of the poor rating it got at Secrets, but I have no idea what Firmware version was used by Kris for the tests.

On the other hand the PS3 has gotten nearly universal accolades at deinterlacing and scaling on this Forum. Numerous posts (including me) have found it superior to the Oppo 981, and two posts (including me) have found it equal to the Denon DVD-5910CI. I can only recall one post critical of its performance in this area.

Because of the Secrets vs. experience conflict, I decided it best to omit the PS3 from this post, as there is no definitive answer to the quality of the PS3 on deinterlacing and scaling.

The Secrets test were clearly done with an old version of the firmware. Unfortunately, at this point that makes the results useless. It seems for now we should give the PS3 the benefit of the doubt as there is no current evidence of poor performance.

ADGrant

· #18 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S /forum/post/12831281

The PS3 does not do any deinterlacing of bluray 1080i content. It just feeds the image right of the decoder. You would have to rely on the deinterlacing of your display. A great resouce to test this is the HQV bluray test disc.

So what happens if you have your PS3 setup to only output 720p and 480p?

Ruined

· #19 · Jan 16, 2008

I immediately noticed the poor scaling of my new Panasonic BD30 compared to the previous Toshiba HD-A35 when using standard DVD.

I wish if they can't provide decent scaling that they allow us to set 480i for DVD output (no scaling) over HDMI and 1080i for BD output, so that we can use a decent external video processor without the hassle of switching resolutions all the time.

Sam S

· #20 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADGrant /forum/post/12831400

So what happens if you have your PS3 setup to only output 720p and 480p?

Sorry, I should have been more clear with my response. I should have said the PS3 does not do any deinterlacing of 1080i content to 1080p.

I'm not sure what happens if you only select 480p or 720p output. My TV with the PS3 hooked up only has native scan rates of 480p and 1080i. I could test later on for 480p. I would imagine it does a simple 'bob' of the interlaced material.

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