AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys! I have an Eye1 disp pro. I might get a colormunki spectro and I would like to know if profiling with this will get me some benefits. My logic says that it will. I ask this because I will rent the munki so I want to be sure that this solution will be a good one for a DIY calibration(I can't hire a pro in my country).

Second, I would like to be helped with the exact procedure of how I do this profiling with the latest HCFR, position of the meters, what patterns etc with my Panasonic VT60 plasma.

And last, after profiling I use only the colorimeter for everything(including CMS) or only for wb, gama and spectro for CMS?

Thank you very much for your help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Andrei,


I use my "munki" to profile my display pro. Probably not as good as some of the other spectros, but should help to improve color. I don't use HCFR, but with calman and chromapure the software will make the corrections for you.


Once profiled, use the display pro for all your measurements. Lot of choices on the "best" patterns. I like both standard windows and APL in the 5-10% range. If you don't have a generator try one of the discs found here on the site.


ControlCal has also been a great help to me.


Good Luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
When I asked about patterns I meant what color and white to use for profiling. In Michael Chen's videos I saw 75% White and primaries for Calman and Chromapure. For HCFR it seems that I have to take some initial grayscale and colours measures and use that as a reference like someone advised me in the hcfr thread.

Thanks for your response!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
I am not Mr. Chen, but it seems I saw somewhere here on the forum that the "colormunki" was less accurate at lower levels, especially blue. I have been using 100% white, red, green, blue. This helps assure a better sample for the accuracy range of the meter.


The Mascior disc has a great chapter for profiling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Greetings


Even my mother does not call me Mr. Chen.
The police however ... is another story.


The limitations for the entry level spectrals comes in at stuff less than 30% ... But it depends on the device. 10% and 20% on some flat panels are plenty bright for the device.


doing a profile at 75% levels is just fine or else we have even bigger problems if 75% is a problem.


regards
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrei_VVB

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,704 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24558628


When I asked about patterns I meant what color and white to use for profiling. In Michael Chen's videos I saw 75% White and primaries for Calman and Chromapure. For HCFR it seems that I have to take some initial grayscale and colours measures and use that as a reference like someone advised me in the hcfr thread.

Thanks for your response!

Hello,


It doesn't matter what Stimulus Levels WRGB Patterns you will use during your meter profiling if you have a JETI / Photo Reaseach / Minolta.... but If you have i1PRO 1/2 or ColorMunki Spectro: these meters are returning chromaticity but they are not so accurate reading low luminance levels, for example Blue Pattern during the profiling @ Luminance Levels Below ~8 cd/m2.


i1PRO1/2 ColorMunki Spectro, is not so accurate on everything below ~10cdm/2..It will return to you chromaticity readings but it will be fake.


You can run a test to see where your i1pro1/2 doesn't return trusted readings.


Profile your colorimeter with using your spectro and run a 21-Step Grayscale with your spectro and with your profiled colorimeter.....you will see that at 50%-100% grayscale both meter will return to your similar readings but lower you will see that i1pro2 will not track well your colorimeter readings.....At the point you will see that problem is starting, check the Luminance level of that point and you will see at what cdm2 is the limit you can trust at the future


Examples / Why we have to always profile with 100% Amplitude patterns with i1pro1/2:


If you have a Display with White @ 120cd/m2 with Gamma 2.2:


If you perform profiling with 100% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


100% White @ 120 cd/m2

100% Blue @ 8,6 cd/m2


If you perform profiling with 75% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


75% White @ 63,5 cd/m2

75% Blue @ 4,5 cd/m2


If you have a Projector with White @ 14fl = 48cd/m2 with Gamma 2.2:


If you perform profiling with 100% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


100% White @ 48 cd/m2

100% Blue @ 3,4 cd/m2

100% Red @ 10,2 cd/m2


If you perform profiling with 75% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


75% White @ 25,4 cd/m2

75% Blue @ 1,8 cd/m2

75% Red @ 5,4 cd/m2


After some of my post and discusion at past in CalMAN 5 Topic, CalMAN changed the default software Stimulus Level from 75% to 100% for that reason.




BTW This Meter Profiling Check layout page is useful for users to check if their meter profiling correction table is accurate.


I'm sure you will be surprised when you will find out that your familiar meter profiling procedure you followed since now maybe has create some not valid tables for some reason but you haven't realized that this is be possible because you have always followed the correct way but you haven't checked it.


Use this Reference Meter Page to take WRGB measurements using your Spectro and after that run your meter profiling procedure. (re-measure again the WRGB patches using your spectro and colorimeter)


Later, use the Profiled Meter Page to measure the WRGB Patches with your Profiled Meter to see if the correction table is accurate vs. your reference meter readings.


You will found that sometimes it will need to re-perform your meter profiling 2-3 times to get you accepted results. Count also your meter repeatability/display instability here that maybe produce inaccurate meter correction tables.


This workflow page is included to CalMAN 5 Workflows for Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Users .


Anyone who has time he can design something similar for his own custom workflow, since I'm giving this out to my disk users only.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
All right. So is safer to use 100% patterns. If that will eliminate a possible bad profiling I see no problem with that.

Now, the question for me is: how do I do that with HCFR? I read these WRGB paterns with spectro. Then what? I need some help here


I repeat, I saw in those great videos of MR Chen:) how's done with calman and chromapure but I don't have those.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Greetings


Safer to use 100% patterns? Not necessarily ...


If your contrast is set wrong, the 100% patterns could be color shifted or clipped ... which is not representative of the rest of the image.


Where is most of the content that you watch? is it at 100% levels? Or is it closer to the mid range ...?


75% is used because it is closer to the midrange and more representative of the real picture content range.


Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,704 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24564099


Greetings


Safer to use 100% patterns? Not necessarily ...


If your contrast is set wrong, the 100% patterns could be color shifted or clipped ... which is not representative of the rest of the image.


Where is most of the content that you watch? is it at 100% levels? Or is it closer to the mid range ...?


75% is used because it is closer to the midrange and more representative of the real picture content range.


Regards





Absolutely correct about Clipping, the user has to check that using a similar Contrast Pattern and a Color Channel Clipping Pattern like the above ones, before starting any profiling session.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,864 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24563121




If you have a Display with White @ 120cd/m2 with Gamma 2.2:


If you perform profiling with 100% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


100% White @ 120 cd/m2

100% Blue @ 8,6 cd/m2


If you perform profiling with 75% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


75% White @ 63,5 cd/m2

75% Blue @ 4,5 cd/m2

I'm sure this is a stupido question but why does this matter? Are you saying that the i1Pro/Munkis can manage to read the "blue" component accurately enough on "White," but then somehow falls down when reading the same "blue" component alone? By this logic, *every* white/grey reading below 100% would be "suspect."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,704 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24564716

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24563121




If you have a Display with White @ 120cd/m2 with Gamma 2.2:


If you perform profiling with 100% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


100% White @ 120 cd/m2

100% Blue @ 8,6 cd/m2


If you perform profiling with 75% Amplitude Patterns then you will have:


75% White @ 63,5 cd/m2

75% Blue @ 4,5 cd/m2

I'm sure this is a stupido question but why does this matter? Are you saying that the i1Pro/Munkis can manage to read the "blue" component accurately enough on "White," but then somehow falls down when reading the same "blue" component alone? By this logic, *every* white/grey reading below 100% would be "suspect."

100% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 100% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


75% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 75% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


I'm not spliting the White reading to RGB Components to my above posted data's.


I hope this makes sense now
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,864 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24564945


100% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 100% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


75% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 75% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


I'm not spliting the White reading to RGB Components to my above posted data's.


I hope this makes sense now

Not really. I'm trying to understand why you would think the radiant spectral power of the "blue" patch (primary) would be any different than the radiant spectral power of the "blue" component in the white patch? (Allowing for variation due to the "current" CCT of white. Edit: scratch that ... CCT doesn't matter here. )


A couple of follow up questions: How much of the "blue" spectrum falls under the y-bar observer function? And secondly, how does this effect the calculated "Y" value of the blue patch? In other words, I'm asking can the Y value of white really be directly compared to the Y value of "blue?"


On my LCD, the SP of "blue" peaks at about 1/2 the peak power of green ... but the blue primary spreads out over almost 2.5 times the spectrum width of the green primary, so once all the math settles it *may* be that blue the primary actually contains a wee bit more radiant power than the green primary.


Perhaps I'm over thinking this ... but I don't think the REC709/601 luma (Y) relationships can be used as a reliable predictor of i1Pro accuracy in the way you propose. OTOH, There could be something else going that would explain the i1Pro vs Jeti discrepancies you are seeing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,704 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24567045

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24564945


100% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 100% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


75% Blue Patch means Blue wth 100% Saturation @ 75% Stimulus Level (Amplitude)


I'm not spliting the White reading to RGB Components to my above posted data's.


I hope this makes sense now

Not really. I'm trying to understand why you would think the radiant spectral power of the "blue" patch (primary) would be any different than the radiant spectral power of the "blue" component in the white patch? (Allowing for variation due to the "current" CCT of white. Edit: scratch that ... CCT doesn't matter here. )


A couple of follow up questions: How much of the "blue" spectrum falls under the y-bar observer function? And secondly, how does this effect the calculated "Y" value of the blue patch? In other words, I'm asking can the Y value of white really be directly compared to the Y value of "blue?"


On my LCD, the SP of "blue" peaks at about 1/2 the peak power of green ... but the blue primary spreads out over almost 2.5 times the spectrum width of the green primary, so once all the math settles it *may* be that blue the primary actually contains a wee bit more radiant power than the green primary.


Perhaps I'm over thinking this ... but I don't think the REC709/601 luma (Y) relationships can be used as a reliable predictor of i1Pro accuracy in the way you propose. OTOH, There could be something else going that would explain the i1Pro vs Jeti discrepancies you are seeing.

i1PRO's are loosing accurancy at their readings when the measured patch has low luminance, it's not about blue or red or green, it's about measured Luminance of any patch.


For higher performance below 10cdm/2 you need a better spectro.


One day I will measure 21-Point Grayscale + 20-Step of RGB to show you where the i1PRO1/2 is loosing it's tracking vs. my JETI 1211
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,864 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24567122


i1PRO's are loosing accurancy at their readings when the measured patch has low luminance, it's not about blue or red or green, it's about measured Luminance of any patch.


For higher performance below 10cdm/2 you need a better spectro.


One day I will measure 21-Point Grayscale + 20-Step of RGB to show you where the i1PRO1/2 is loosing it's tracking vs. my JETI 1211

You need to review how spectro's actually work. "Luminance" (Y) has no meaning in this context. "Luminance" (Y) only matters to the human eye/brain. All spectros "care about" is the actual physical intensity (radiant power) falling upon their sensors. "Luminance" (Y) is not an actual physical property, it's a virtual construct of the CIE 1931 Standard Observer.


But yes we know already know that the i1Pro is *not* a Jeti 1211. There may be discrepancies between the two meters, but that has nothing to do with "Luminance" (Y) of individual patches.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,651 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24567045


Not really. I'm trying to understand why you would think the radiant spectral power of the "blue" patch (primary) would be any different than the radiant spectral power of the "blue" component in the white patch? (Allowing for variation due to the "current" CCT of white. Edit: scratch that ... CCT doesn't matter here. )


A couple of follow up questions: How much of the "blue" spectrum falls under the y-bar observer function? And secondly, how does this effect the calculated "Y" value of the blue patch? In other words, I'm asking can the Y value of white really be directly compared to the Y value of "blue?"


On my LCD, the SP of "blue" peaks at about 1/2 the peak power of green ... but the blue primary spreads out over almost 2.5 times the spectrum width of the green primary, so once all the math settles it *may* be that blue the primary actually contains a wee bit more radiant power than the green primary.


Perhaps I'm over thinking this ... but I don't think the REC709/601 luma (Y) relationships can be used as a reliable predictor of i1Pro accuracy in the way you propose. OTOH, There could be something else going that would explain the i1Pro vs Jeti discrepancies you are seeing.

like Ted mentions it's simply because blue is much darker than white (red, green, and blue at the same time)... simply put, the i1pro is more accurate measuring brighter patches than dimmer ones (and blue is the darkest color measured during profiling)

EDIT: also, this is why SpectraCal updated CalMAN 5 not too long ago to make the default % stim for profiling 100% from the previous 75%
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,864 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24568336


like Ted mentions it's simply because blue is much darker than white (red, green, and blue at the same time)... simply put, the i1pro is more accurate measuring brighter patches than dimmer ones (and blue is the darkest color measured during profiling)

See above (#14,) please.



It's certainly true that the i1Pro does better with more "light." The problem here is assuming that the i1Pro (or any spectro) sees light the same way we humans do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,651 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24568342


See above (#14,) please.

actually it's well documented the i1pro1/2 accuracy falls off when measuring dark patterns... which is why most profile with colorimeters


you're overthinking this
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,864 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24568353


actually it's well documented the i1pro1/2 accuracy falls off when measuring dark patterns... which is why most profile with colorimeters


you're overthinking this

The *POINT* point here, is that the blue patch is not really as "dark" (to a spectro) as it's Y value would suggest.
The "Z" value would be a more appropriate measure of the physical "energy" contained in (or radiated from) the blue patch.


Again ... Standard Observer applies to humans ... not mechanical/electrical devices.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,704 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24568333

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1525059/profiling-eye-1-disp-pro-with-colormunki-photo-spectro#post_24567122


i1PRO's are loosing accurancy at their readings when the measured patch has low luminance, it's not about blue or red or green, it's about measured Luminance of any patch.


For higher performance below 10cdm/2 you need a better spectro.


One day I will measure 21-Point Grayscale + 20-Step of RGB to show you where the i1PRO1/2 is loosing it's tracking vs. my JETI 1211

You need to review how spectro's actually work. "Luminance" (Y) has no meaning in this context. "Luminance" (Y) only matters to the human eye/brain. All spectros "care about" is the actual physical intensity (radiant power) falling upon their sensors. "Luminance" (Y) is not an actual physical property, it's a virtual construct of the CIE 1931 Standard Observer.


But yes we know already know that the i1Pro is *not* a Jeti 1211. There may be discrepancies between the two meters, but that has nothing to do with "Luminance" (Y) of individual patches.



Hey, this is display calibration forum, we are measuring displays, so the Luminance is the correct terminology.


BTW if you want to see where your i1PRO is loosing it's accurancy, use your colorimeter as a reference meter and create a meter correction table for i1PRO, after that make that correction table active and read 21-step grayscale with both meters and compare later the charts. You will see at what measured luminance levels the i1PRO is loosing the tracking.
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
Top