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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8120_40#post_24643347


or redheads are hotter than blondes.
That depends on the rest of the chassis.



"Film Like" is overused but I get the sense many like "video-like" since video is usually is sharper than film on the large screen.
 

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I define "film-like" in terms of a natural, organic look that takes on something similar to (well tuned) analog projection if you will at a good theater.


It also includes minimal to no processing artifacts such as contrast boosting, color enhancements, edge enhancement, noise reduction, motions settings that mimic the soap opera effect, etc.


By comparison, LED vs plasma. Plasma has more of this look compared to an LED even when comparing top models which are calibrated. LED just looks more digital and it's just inherent compared to a phosphor based display.


I think various content and Blu-ray transfers probably exhibit these differences more than anything else. Some look very natural and analog where as others look so processed they look like they were shot on 720p video cam (such as many Universal studio catalog titles) when they were actually shot on film. I watched Blade Runner: The Final Cut on Blu the other day as I am revisiting my catalog collection since getting my RS4810 up and running. Even though that disc is 8 years old, it was like watching a new film print.
That disc was cutting edge quality no doubt.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100#post_24642122


To be honest, a good 0.95 chip DLP unit is tough to beat. As long as you don't have issues with the rainbow effect or the black level threshold I recommend DLP's all the time.

I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...
 

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JVC RS2000| Runco Q750| Hitachi 3500 LED| DPI LED 600|130in 2:35.1| MadVR| Pioneer VSX-LX503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8120_40#post_24644803


I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...

I haven't had any problems with the black levels on my DLP. I watch a lot of material on it. Watching something like Oblivion and Pacific Rim can go toe to toe with a JVC.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100#post_24644803


I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...

It depends on which DLP projectors you're talking about. Some are truly in another league.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100#post_24644803


I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...
Certainly none of the DLPs will be able to deliver the on/off contrast or black level of the JVC or even Sony. Certainly for folks who believe that a Sony 55 does not have acceptable on/off should not consider any DLP.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100_50#post_24645234


There is no DLP that has better blacks than a JVC, the closest is the Lumis for like $30k+ I believe.

Be careful on how you state that. There are DLP projectors that can match and best a low/medium end JVC in terms of black level, but not contrast and image dynamics. The Sharp XV-Z20000 had the darkest black level I've seen on a DLP projector so far. It was even darker than the Planar PD8150. If you have something like an RS46 with it's iris open all the way (ie worst black level) there are a few DLP projectors that can come close or best the JVC. The PD8150 can get close, the Sharp XV-Z20000 can match it and I'm sure some Sim2 models can best the JVC. There's an old thread comparing an RS20 to a Sim2 Lumis. With the manual iris closed most of the way and using it's DI it produced a darker black floor and still had enough brightness during brighter scenes to look brighter than the RS20. For those interested, that comparison is in a thread in the $20000+ forum. Though, I guess you get what you pay for. The Lumis is much more expensive than the JVC was. The XV-Z20000 may have had a black level on par with the JVC, but it lacked contrast performance, which means that brighter images looked very dull when you closed the manual iris enough to get competitive black levels, plus darker scenes didn't have that kind of "pop" the JVCs can produce due to the far higher native contrast. The LS-5 can get close but it was still a tick or two higher than the Z20000 but luckily it had a DI instead of a manual iris so it still looks great with brighter scenes.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100#post_24645408


Be careful on how you state that. There are DLP projectors that can match and best a low/medium end JVC in terms of black level, but not contrast and image dynamics. .
Contrast = White level / Black level. A JVC 4900 with iris wide open = 28,000:1. A Skarp 20K with iris fully closed will do 8K:1. A Sony VW 95 iris closed will do 19K:1 At the same white level the JVC will have 3 times lower black level. and the Sony 2 times lower. Intra image contrast and dynamics well that could be a different story.


I currently own a Sharp 20K, JVC RS35, and a Sony VW95.
 

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I received my JVC DLA-X500 today. I took the day off today so I could play around with it. I'm sure most of you would agree this is a perfectly good reason to use a sick day.



The unit I received is an excellent sample. Great convergence and lens. I also think this is the best unit I've had to date in regards to color uniformity. Some of the previous units I've owned were 'iffy when it came to color uniformity. This is still one area where DLP is king.


OOTB color performance is excellent, especially considering there's no THX mode. In contrast to the X55R (last years mid-range projector) there's a huge step up with OOTB color. The X55R had way too much green in the picture OOTB. This unit might have a tad too much red, but I plan on running this unit through the Spyder4Elite + JVC Auto-Cal to get it closer. I'm not a color Nazi and the Spyder4Elite should get me close enough for my own personal taste.


The menu system has a new font and is set up a little differently, but within a few days I should have it my memory where things are placed. I like how each year JVC takes more and more options that were only accessible through the service menu and have placed them in the regular menus. There are only 6 or 7 things left in the service menu as most of them are now regularly accessible in the regular menus. Nice touch.


I've been paying close attention to two things as I demo'ed material this evening as they were the most important things I think this years models' have to supposedly offer; DI performance and motion handling. The DI is excellent but I still think it needs a few tweaks here and there. It's operation is on par with the PD8150 and from memory I'd still give the PD8150 the slight nod in terms of implementation. The one thing I'd fault the PD8150 for would be clipped whites on the darkest of dark material. That is virtually absent on the JVCs. I say virtually because I caught some clipping in the beginning scene of The Desolation of Smaug, where Gandolf and Thorin are talking in the bar. Keep a keen eye on Thorin's cheek while they're talking. I don't have the PD8150 anymore so I'll have to make Zombie do a couple comparisons with a few scenes that I remember the DI on the PD8150 doing better and see if they hold up. There is also the issue of "flickering". This is not there at all (or at least on any perceptible level) on the PD8150. Seeing how I don't see the iris moving it's position during these scenes this must be as others have pointed out and is a dynamic gamma issue. As others have pointed out, it's mostly there on mid-average picture level scenes and only comes up on occasion. It's not terribly annoying but it's definitely there and can be seen without "looking for it". There were also a few scenes in The Desolation of Smaug where I saw some slight pumping and was confused as to why it was slipping up the DI because it didn't seem to have enough contrast change to justify the DI's movement and I think this is why it stood out to me as as it did. The APL of the scene was very consistent and the brightness change stood about because of it. With that said, I just put my anamorphic lens in place and when I scale the image horizontally to take up the full 1080 pixels (no black bars) the DI seems to have more information to work with and so far it's fared better in terms of flickering and brightness changes. These "complaints" are minor and I'm sure some of you might get the impression after reading that, that there is something wrong with the DI on this projector. But that couldn't be farther from the truth. As many others have posted before me, this is an excellent DI. One that can be enabled at all times. It's right up there in the same league as the PD8150 and the Sony's. Hopefully we'll see them make some tweaks on next years models. The only area where I find it needs immediate attention is with the gamma ficker as it's the most frequent artifact that comes up, but again, it's rare. Great first attempt, but I wouldn't call it the "best" just yet. I still think, clipped whites notwithstanding, the DI on the PD8150 is slightly more refined off of memory. Maybe Zombie can A/B his PD8130 next to the 4910 has currently has and give us a few impressions?


A couple things to note is that I've only been using the DI with the manual setting a "0", which is fully open. I'm assuming if I closed it down a little that would all but eliminate any brightness changes within a given scene. Though I think the flicker I'm seeing would probably still come up on occasion.


I do believe there is subjectively better motion performance. When I first get a new projector there are about a dozen clips I use every time just to get a general feel of that projector. I've seen these clips probably a hundred times so I feel confident in saying this is probably the best non-DLP motion I've seen to date with 24p material. It's right up there with the Sony 1080p machines. Is it a huge difference between the last couple generations? No, but it is noticeable with certain types of quick motion. I've noticed in scenes where people are talking and when there heads turn or bob, there seems to be less "blur" (greater resolution) during that motion. Very DLP like. Bravo JVC!!! Motion has always been something I've never liked on the JVCs up until the 2012 models. It's nice to see they've made another small stride in that department.


One other new setting I found interesting was Clear Black. In "Low" it looks similar to what the Darbee Darblet does. I think "High" is a little excessive and shouldn't be used, but Low looks about right in terms of adding something to the image without introducing artifacts. I did try out a 4K input from my HTPC just to use MadVR for scaling instead. I didn't take a look to see if the MPC controls work like another member pointed out, but I will later tonight. Personally speaking I think the scaling MadVR does is better than the internal scaler that JVC has. The image appeared sharper and more solid. The only issue is that the JINC scaler MadVR uses is pretty demanding and my GTX 690 ramps up the fan considerably and adds more heat and noise to my room. I have my PC in the same room as my projector so I'm debating whether or not to send a 4K image to the projector. I'll have to play around and see if I like the JINC scaled image with e-shift over a normal 1080p image and make a decision on which to use.


Anyways those are some quick thoughts. Sorry for the length of the post. I still want to check out 3D, the CMD, and do an A/B to the X90, but I think overall the X500 is nicer projector.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100_50#post_24645524


Contrast = White level / Black level. A JVC 4900 with iris wide open = 28,000:1. A Skarp 20K with iris fully closed will do 8K:1. A Sony VW 95 iris closed will do 19K:1 At the same white level the JVC will have 3 times lower black level. and the Sony 2 times lower. Intra image contrast and dynamics well that could be a different story.


I currently own a Sharp 20K, JVC RS35, and a Sony VW95.

That's under the assumption that the white level brightness is the same between each projector. You could have a projector with only 100:1 FO:FO contrast and still have a darker black level.


For instance, check out the cine4home review of the X35 here . For example, on a 92" wide screen, with the iris full open and high lamp mode, they measure 970 lumens which would equate to a peak white level of 29.19 ftL. They say at this setting you get 22000:1 contrast. This would make a black level of .0013 ftL.


Look at the Runco LS-5 review here


On the same size screen size they got:


Black: 0.0013 ftL

White: 13.85 ftL


The same black level even though the contrast is only a little over 10000:1. The brightness of the peak white is the only thing different. So yes, there are DLP projectors out there that can get you a black level on the same level or better than a low end JVC. Other than the Runco LS-5 and a couple LED models, the only other ones that are for sale still are the super high end Sim2's. Slim pickings but they do exist. I'm sure Zombie can tell you how much he's loving his PD8130.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8130#post_24645447


I bet this one has some killer 3D ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SIM2-LUMIS-3D-S-MINT-CONDITION-A-LOW-HRS-BEST-3D-PROJECTOR-/131172679329?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8a803ea1

I know my projector like many others have bandwidth limitations at 144hz and drops lines-something like 24 ish I can't recall exactly. At 96hz I get 1080p for both eyes. I don't see a loss in resolution @144 and prefer virtually no flicker.

Does the SIM2 have the same issue?


I'd love to see a new SIM2 but I don't believe we have had a rep in our area for some time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8130#post_24645575


That's under the assumption that the white level brightness is the same between each projector. You could have a projector with only 100:1 FO:FO contrast and still have a darker black level.
True but quite silly and not really germane to the point. No one is asking which pj can make a dimmer picture.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100_50#post_24645600


True but quite silly and not really germane to the point. No one is asking which pj can make a dimmer picture.

Re-read my edited post. It provides more information to support my point. And of course I'm talking about which projector can make a dimmer picture. I'm talking about black level exclusively, not contrast. My original point was to make sure people don't use the word black level when they really mean contrast. The two are totally different things and don't always define relative subjective performance of a projector. I mean, take a look a a ProjectionDesign projector, many of which claim 7500:1+ native contrast. In those scenarios that' turns out to be true but most of the contrast performance is within the brighter spectrum whereas the LS-5 is the opposite and gets a far darker black level.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8130#post_24645575



The same black level even though the contrast is only a little over 10000:1. The brightness of the peak white is the only thing different. So yes, there are DLP projectors out there that can get you a black level on the same level or better than a low end JVC. Other than the

Runco LS-5 and a couple LED models, the only other ones that are for sale still are the super high end Sim2's. Slim pickings but they do exist. I'm sure Zombie can tell you how much he's loving his PD8130.

Nothing personal at all man, but...


Come on now, I always cringe at posts on this specific topic of "the black level can be the same if the white is dimmer" as the only purpose it serves is to muddy the water and especially to confuse newbies. it's like saying I can beat my JVC if I am watching a super dim image, it's a silly comparison and sounds like something a politician would come up with as his defense after sleeping with half his co-workers.


The moon is the same brightness as the sun, if the sun is behind enough clouds
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m  /t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/8100_50#post_24646003


Nice pics Dylan.


I hope the MPC fix in 1080p will come soon in a firmware update.

-- I've posted this in a few other places, so I hope it helps:



I can confirm that the MPC controls do indeed work on both 1080p and 4K inputs. I have firmware version r.1211.1 installed. For those who say it doesn't work this is what I want you to do:


First off find a scene that has something like a facial close-up with lots of detail in it and pause the movie/scene. Then:


1.) Go under the MPC sub-menu.

2.) If they aren't already, set all values to "0"

3.) Press "Back" on your remote until it asks you if you want to save those MPC settings. Chose 'Yes'.

4.) Go back into the MPC control settings and set 'Enhance' and "Dynamic Contrast" to 50. This is half way.

5.) You'll see a blue icon in the bottom left hand corner light up.

6.) On your remote find the button that says 'Before/After'.

7.) Go up to within a few feet of your screen so you can see the difference easier and press this button to see the before (0) and after (50) settings. There should be a noticeable difference in the apparent sharpness and localized contrast within the image.


Please leave feedback if you still don't see a difference. I've tried this when sending the X500 a 1080p24 and 3840x2160p24 image and voth work. From there play around with the MPC settings as you like. Personally I leave NR (noise reduction) and smoothing at 0 and have both Enhance and Dynamic Contrast at 25. This seems to be the best settings for me without adding a harsh digital look to the image.
 
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