[Dan G]

THough I fear it may come to nothing, I think now- before this product is full scale released- to take the opportunity to at leat make yourself heard, before giving them your money.


I suggest you inform you dealers (and Sanyo if possible, or else ask them to talk to Sanyo and report the results) that

1. as early adopters of this new technology, you understand the premium price you are paying for this product. Though it looks to be the "best in it's class" - hoping Wiggles report is good!- and surpasses it't competitors, the mark-up is still higher on this "HT niche product"

2. You accept this premium, and will agree to be their early adopters, helping to spread awareness of this HT oriented projector amongst other potential buyers (our very ownership allows new consumers to view it's merits- what better advertising!)


HOWEVER


You demand that they be aware of, and address the specific concerns of HT buyers - before you will buy their product.


Sanyo's dead pixel policy (see earlier posts) does not guarantee a new projector for a dead pixel. This is less critical to business customers- but AN ABSOLUTE PREMIUM to HT buyers.

If Sanyo wants to charge HT consumers a premium for this product (and we will pay!) they MUST develop a HT specific product performance criteria to YOUR satisfaction (within reason). I would recommend a "zero dead pixel policy" for HT buyers, allowing returns for even a single pixel in any panel location.

This would make you all feel better about your hard earned cash, gives a safer and better return on our investment, and ensures more quality products out in the field.


Finally- someone has to force a more HT oriented level of quality if they want premium prices- and if you start letting them get away with things now, they have little incentive to make concessions later.


If Sanyo refuses (it would at least be great to see them respond in any manner!) - I suggest the 10 or 15 of you rubbing your money ready to buy get together and ALL agree to buy from the internet vendor who will personally make this guarantee even if Sanyo will not. This kinda puts moer obligation on this vendor than other, but I gotta think some vendor will be willing to provide this to get lots of orders. Maybe even if Sanyo will not step up to the plate initially they will see sales flocking to those vendors who will in their place, and may amend their own policy on this.


I would be pissed off to hell to pay $7k for anything with even a single dead pixel, I know they do not look big, but the thought alone would drive me nuts-- you mean all this money, and you dont have to make it perfect?-- Plus- whats the first damn thing any random asks when they come over "great picture!-- whats that little tiny red dot over there..." - ugh that sucks. I would pay $7.5k for one with a zero dead pixel guarantee for 3 years-- maybe the vendor could offer this is a $500 HT insurance program...



Sanyo- are you listening??? HT doesn;t just mean the panel shape, it also means a higher quality standard & guarantee.


DG

 

[tropicalisland]

I like the idea of us all getting together to purchase from one agreeable dealer and I am ready to do so (providing the forthcoming reviews are positive). Anyone else?


Charlie

 

[pkurtis]

Count me in! Any dealers out there listening? This is your chance to line up a large volume sale if you put together the right deal with the right guarantee.

 

[Dan G]

Great! I hope this really works.

Don't forget too though to make an attempt to make your feelings known to Sanyo too- or ask you dealer to.

I think this is Sanyo's first pure HT projector (no business applications for this guy), and we should all try to start them off right.

The HT market isn't just stretching the panel resolution.


Other things I might think to ask of Sanyo

1. Company enforced no-questions 30 day no-restocking fee returns.

Sanyo wants to get customers and recognizes that HT products are an experience good. To promote auditions, and make potential customers secure, Sanyo should prohibit dealers from charging restocking fees.

Customers should be chared only for actual lamp usage. Dealers should be allowed to return these units to Sanyo for a rebate of dealer cost.

2. Sanyo should have an overnight loaner program for customers. You might get one of the "single dead pixel" units, but Sanyo should have a bit of a stockpile of these, so should be able to accomodate without using their new product.


After the intial buyers all get the PLV60 ifthey can afford it, in 6 months Sanyo should roll out a demo/dead pixel blowout. They could mark these units down almost to cost (which might mean $1500 off), and allow their "best" dealers to sell these for up to a fixed amount (say $500 more than their cost). Now you can get rid of these not-quite perfect units, and create a new surge of demand at the $5000 price point instead of the $7k point.


Sanyo should also be aggressively screening it's dealers for quality and consumers for dealer comments, because a Business projection shop does not a HT dealer make. Perhaps they will haveto restict their "Authorized HT" sellers to only a select portion of all dealers...


dg

 

[abigpicture]

I'd love to sell perfect projectors. IF the manufacturer of the LCD panels cannot guarantee 100% pixel perfection, it is imposssible for the dealer to do it. THe cost of each panel replacement is so significant that a $500 - $1,000 premium would not even cover it. Most all buyers of the units would have to pay the premium (whatever it is) to make it even begin to be feasible to insure. MOst will not pay the price. Maybe someday they will manufacture a perfect panel. I don't think it will be this year or next..or next..?? ITs pretty difficult to make 3.1 million of anything without a flaw.


Regards,

John

 

[acaciolo]

I am a sanyo dealer...although I have not seen the plv-60 yet. I would be happy to work some type of a powerbuy, as long as it has Alan's blessing.


tony caciolo

www.monogramcustomhomes.com

 

[abigpicture]

Corporate customers would not want a 16:9 panel and 1300 ansi is decent .The Sanyo would be similar to an NEC lt155 for $4,300 - $4,700. THe 16:9 panel is the most exspensive part of the projector.SO its not easily translated to 4:3 machines.


I would certainly like perfect units as I stated in a previous post and from all manufacturers . Its just not going to happen. I see all brands, makes models, new, renewed, used. None of them are perfect on a regular basis.


Even a $100,000 order is not much buying power in the industry. A large projector house will put in 1.5 million dollar buys on a regular basis.I may buy $110-$150k a month. Manufactures do not roll-over and play dead for you. Keep in mind the industry now is providing great value units which can work their way into many many homes in America. Much more so than 3 years agverall the quality is very good.


SO a dealer does a powerbuy with 20 people requiring perfection. I frankly do not want that business. Not that I do not want business...but no one is going to guarantee prefection on all levels. Pixels are only one abnormality. What about green Blobs, dust that works its way into the unit..(it will happen)? What about hotspotting??


I bend over backwards for my customers. I always will.I don't like unhappy customers,but signing on to the perfection plan is a guaranteed way to spend time and money shipping exspensive items all over the globe.With the economy slowing many dealers are really getting crunched. They may be willing to say anything to get the sale. I am not going to promise anything to my customers that I cannot deliver on. If I don;t get the sale I don't get the sale.


Regards,

John

 

[JohnMarcus]

Well, I don't understand the "no perfection" argument here at all.


Intel puts about 47 million transistors on a pentium 4, about 7 million on a pentium III, all with a perfection guarantee. And about in the same amount of space as a LCD panel. They just throw away the bad ones.


The marginal cost of SANYO/SONY making more LCD panels and throwing away the bad ones shouldn't be that much more. It certainly should cost less than putting a whole projector together and throwing the whole thing out if the pixels are bad.


Since some people get perfect panels, then all people should get perfect panels.


Personally, I won't buy one that is not perfect, or does not have a perfection guarantee.


I will probably buy either the SONY 10HT or the SANYO PLV60, depending on the cost and the reviews. I also may wait for the cost factors to stabilize.


John.

 

[Dan G]

Tony!- way to step up. Now get the no dead pixel stuff in writing and we're almost home!


John- I understand your postition.

1. Tony's reply demonstrates that some dealers will take on this extra risk for business.

2. You are right- why the heck should you have to do this, if Sanyo itself will not! And that was exactly the reason I brought this up!

Please - take ten minutes, call your Sanyo rep. tell him this, ask him for a reply and write it here, or have him reply directly.


You SHOULD NOT have to do this on your own, but SANYO should make this their policy. Why would they do so, unless they hear it from their dealers! I am just one guy who might make them $1000, I doubt anybody major listens to me there. You are a source of $XYZ thousand. You move 100 units or whatever a year, and will demonstrate (if they ask you to, I am sure you could) increased sales with this policy. Show them this thread, which I am hoping in a week will have 5 or 6 or 10 buyers all willing to swing to the dealer who treats them the way they want. Now they are not looking at one guy, they are looking at a dealer who will place a $50,000 order for projectors if they treat us right.


Dealers here are stuck in the middle, but could really assist us in getting Sanyo's ear. That is my goal. Their current policy sucks IMO. Maybe businesses will accept dead pixels, maybe it has been policy so long that dealers think it weird or impossible to demand otherwise. HT buyer should not have to.


This is Sanyo's First and only HT projector. Why not at least try, and try loudly and agressively, to get them to do things right from the start.

If they listen we all win big time- consumers, and HT dealers too I think.


I see all these posts here about dead pixel complaints in D-ILA's, etc.

Buyers seem to "get over it", but who with a D-ILA doesn;t dream that they had a "no dead pixel" guarantee? Sometimes the best improvement on something really is that final 1% that removes a tiny annoyance, but an obvious imperfection.

Why kick yourself in two years when you have dead pixels, Sanyo tells you to piss of, and your dealer says 'sorry **** happens, nothing's perfect'


This is a unique time as they enter a new market to try and catch their ear!


Finally, I really want to hear Sanyo's reply, especially if it's "No". I want them to tell me why they don;t care to treat us as we wish.

If my brand new car came with a scratch, no matter how little, no matter how hard to see, once I noticed it I would be pissed. MAchine made products should have a perceived level of quality. IT I want something hand crafted, then you understand that imperfections happen and are part of it's charm. If I buy a machine I expect it to be to spec.

If I bought a new car, and noticed a small scratch or ding on delivery I would demoand it be repaired, no matter how minor.

IF my dealer refused to fix the scratch

"hey, look at all the paint on this car, it takes hours, there's so much surface area, how can a little scratch bother you. On a panel this big you are lucky there is only one scratch. We don;t have to fix it normally unless there are 4 or more scratches centrally located. Hey scratches happen man, besides it would cost $1k to re paint that whole big panel for that tiny scratch..."

I would tell them to piss off.

Granted the projector market is differnt, but we should not "accept" the status quo if it is unfavorable. We should flex our buying might and get something up to our standards.

If I get a scratch on my projector or dust on my lens, well, thats my fault, but when the thing comes to me it should shine.

My personal dealer was awesome, and indulged my ridiculous fanaticism, but he often said things like "dust blobs, they just happen, etc. etc." He was right, he sees 60000 of these things, he knows.

However, laying down 6 bills, I personally was a little pissy at green blobs - even if only on a black screen.

I am certainly obsessive, but most would agree that a dead pixel really sucks.


John- if Sanyo says the same things you just said, I will not like it, but accept it (and tell people to buy from Tony if he will personally back it up), but I would really like to hear them say it....

One final question John - if you were selling this unit to a business customer (so, everything identical, 1300 lumens, no MLA, and a 4:3 panel).

How much would they pay?

Considering the XP21 is $6500 for 2500 lumens & MLA, the 18n is $5200 for 2000 lumens, no MLA.


If I had to guess I would think a 1300 lumen business projector would get $3000-4000 (somewhere in the NEC 540 to Infocus 350 price range). I would love to be corrected if I am wrong here.


Now take that number and add to it what you think extra it make the 16:9 rather than 4:3 panels. I don;t think this costs much. Unless R&D is very high, or panel cost is insane because production is less than 4:3.

I will be generous in my opinion and add $1k - I may be wrong, please correct.


So now you have a unit that should street from $4k-$5k with a 16:9 panel.

Street manes Sanyo & dealers are still making money, no?


So- what will this package hit at. Sounds like $6500. Wanna bet the first batch runs out ASAP and it jumps up to $7k for a while due to thunderous demand before coming back down- perhaps....


I see a $2k chunk taken out of me because I want to be "Mr. 16:9 snazzy-pants", and they know they have me over a barrel - they got the best game in town.


Well, as long as we all walk in knowing we are getting the sharp end a bit because of the cutting edge factor, no problem- to many it's worth it for this product. But wouldn't we all feel a ton better about it if they at least would give me a product tailored to my needs, if they are going to take me for an extra $2k cause they know I want it.


So "toss me a frickin' bone here" Sanyo

Give me something back for my premium money

Pretend like my concerns (as a HT buyer) matter to you

Give me a product I can be proud of in every way, and that you will stand behind 100%. Enter the HT market by considering HT buyers needs, not adapting your "business projector" policies.


dg

 

[RobertWood]

Dan,


Not to be a wet blanket but what I read from acaciolo's reply

was that he would like to offer a power buy price. Did you

take that to mean that he was willing or able to guarantee

no dead pixels?


Bob Wood


------------------

~~The Sultan of Cheap~~

 

[acaciolo]

Bob,


Wow...looks like I should have read this thread sooner! I made an offer of working some type of power buy, since I am a sanyo dealer. Maybe it would even be run through Alan, if he is interested. But somehow, my offer to do a power buy has been tranformed into me providing 100% perfect projectors...above manufacturer's specs. Obviously, this is not possible. What would I do with the projectors with dead pixels if Sanyo's policy is not to return them? Would I try to sell them to someone else who didn't know? I don't think so.


Also, Sanyo claims that there is only a 2% difference between what the high volume buyers pay and the smaller guys, like me. If that is true, and there really are vendors selling plv-60's at $6k, they are selling at a loss.


Projector vendors are selling units at very slim margins. The value of a powerbuy in a market such as this is probably minimal, unless we could get sanyo to kick in something extra. But in reality, 10,20, or even 30 plv-60s is a tiny tiny order to them.


Hate to rain on the parade...but I think trying to find a dealer who will offer projectors better than Sanyo produces, at a slim to no profit margin, is unreasonable.


Maybe the best bet would be to try Projector central and find a large business projector vendor that has a good return policy. For someone like Alan or myself who caters to the specialty home theater market, the return rate for people seeking projector nirvana in LCD would probably be too high to make profitable. I can tell you...if I had a customer that insisted that I have a higher standard than the manufacturer, I wouldn't want to sell to him.


thanks

 

[RobertWood]

What is the argument for John Marcus' comment comparing

LCD panels to Intel's CPU's which apparently are guaranteed

to perform 100%? Is it because of the different numbers (relatively few

imaging chips produced compared to millions of CPU's)? Is

it because imaging chips are much more expensive to manufacture

than CPU's? Or is his point a valid one?


Bob


------------------

~~The Sultan of Cheap~~

 

[Dan G]

Thanks for the replies but there are several misunderstandings


1. I asked for a dealer to provide this guarantee.

2. tony caciolo posted that he would offer a power buy. I did not understand his post. To me he specifically avoided anything about the guarantee, so I did not think that. But then this post made no sense other than to simply seek business, as it was not responding to my question, was not offering a solution to my problem, yet still was seeking buyers. So, to avoid confusion- I re-posted asking -thanks for the power buy, but what about your dead pixel guarantee- will you make it?

To be honest I felt his post was a bit sneaky (an ad capitalizing on this thread rather than a reply to my inquiry), so I tried to corner him into offering the policy or not.


Tony said no. Now we are up to speed.


John & all other dealers - seeking a policy from you is a LAST resort. MY goal was to get you guys to talk to Sanyo on our behalf and get them to comment. So far I have seen several e-mails apologizing for their behavior, or trying to help me understand the bind a guarantee would put you in-


I am displeased with your replies, but not with you or your policies. I appreciate your replies. However I want to know that we at least tried to get Sanyo's ear on this specifically, and I want to see their reply.


Tony- you mention "if I had a customer that insisted that I have a higher standard than the manufacturer, I wouldn't want to sell to him. "

I would reply that if I had a manufacturer that produced a video product with a permanent, visible defect I would not stop at trying to make them understand that this is not suitable for their market.


Allowing dead pixels sucks for the customer. IT does not effect you dealers provided Sanyo guarantees. Sanyo takes the hit (gee, I think they can handle it), stockpiles 1 dead pixel models and sells those as demos for $1000 less. They can also be used for overnight loaners. I agree that Sonyo corporate should do this- and you guys should either get them to, or please show us their refusal in writing. OR please give me the name & number of someone important and I will talk to them myself.

Maybe a few other forum mebers would take the time to talk to these guys as consumers.


Why are we repeating the old party line? This is a NEW PRODUCT IN A NEW MARKET. Sanyo technically has no HT 16:9 panel pixel policy until they roll this projector out and we take it!

Further, I don't care much if we let them get away with unfavorable policies before - that is no justification to accept or assume we should follow the same path.

Sanyo should understand our needs if they want to make a proper entrance into our market.


The bottom line is I think Sanyo is going to say f*&$ off!- just like you guys think. But I want some avenue (you forward, or give us someones number) to hear THEM say this.

I understand your arguments, but I do not like what I am hearing, and it;s not your fault. I want to confrimation that Sanyo itself is leaving this bad taste in our mouths, and KNOW's this issue matters to us- and still does not care.


If you dealers do not want to waste your time (if you think this is fruitless), or do not want to upset Sanyo by forwarding our gripes, please post an e-mail, name or phone here at the forum. Maybe 6 or 9 calls from us might do some good.


DG

 

[Paul Bamborough]



Originally posted by RobertWood:

What is the argument for John Marcus' comment comparing

LCD panels to Intel's CPU's which apparently are guaranteed

to perform 100%? Is it because of the different numbers (relatively few

imaging chips produced compared to millions of CPU's)? Is

it because imaging chips are much more expensive to manufacture

than CPU's? Or is his point a valid one?


Bob


No, it really is much more difficult to make a perfect LCD than a perfect chip. Both the processes involved and the sheer size of LCDs make that true. It's easier on the relatively small panels used in projectors, but still...


Having said that, I'd certainly pay a premium to be guaranteed no dead pixels. This is being written in front of a 1600 x 1200 LCD with two dead pixels, one quite near the centre: they're completely unobtrusive for general computer work, but infuriating for watching DVDs.


I have a Sony 10HT on order. If it has pixels as bad as my notepad, it goes back. If there is one dead pixel, and it isn't in the middle... well, the 10HT is only being bought because, even though the DWIN Transvision looks much better in terms of contrast, it doesn't have quite enough resolution. So we'll wait for the next generation and perhaps the perfect projector. Meanwhile, we have to have something. The 10HT looks OK, but is definitively not good enough to stop us from still wanting something better....


p

 

[tropicalisland]

I think the much higher cost and fan noise is why most of us here are not considering the D-ILA in place of the Sanyo. We set our limits and shop accordingly.

 

[RobertWood]

Frank,


What is AMMPro? Does it have any connection to AmPro?


Bob


------------------

~~The Sultan of Cheap~~

 

[RobertWood]

Gotcha, Frank. amprocorp.com

p.s. I'm a big fan of Ampro's


Bob



------------------

~~The Sultan of Cheap~~


[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 04-14-2001).]

 

[MrWigggles]

What is Sanyo's spec?


My friend got his 18n and it had a warranty card that said free of defects.


Isn't a dead pixel a defect? Does that not make a defective projector?


I agree. Forget the power buy and find a dealer that has a no hassle return policy.


-Mr. Wigggles



------------------

The Mothership is now boarding.

 

[arrow]

It's unreasonable to expect dealers to "step up" and offer a higher quality LCD than what is covered by the manufacturer.


On the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable for us consumers to vote with our dollars and not purchase imperfect, non-warranteed LCD home theatre projectors. That's how Sanyo will get the message.


The risk of dead pixels and poor warranty is ultimately why I originally passed on Sony's 10HT. I let my dealer know this, and sent a message to Sony.


I strongly support someone posting an e-mail or phone number for Sanyo so those of us who feel this way can express that dead pixels in home theater projectors is unacceptable.


--Les

 

[pkurtis]

Does the fact that the Sanyo PLV-60 will be using Sony LCD panels make it more or less likely that Sanyo units will not have dead pixels? In other words, what is Sanyo's tolerance for bad pixels on LCD panels that it purchases from Sony?


pkurtis