[Li On]

Hi,


I justed visited another forum member Morpheus to checkout 1080p DVD upscale between the Sony PS3 and the Toshiba XA2. Morpheus got the PS3 awhile for blu-ray and recently upgraded from XA1 to XA2 for HD-DVD. He never use both players for DVD. His DVD playback setup is the good old Panasonic RP82 SDI modded to the Crystalio II video processor then HDMI 1080p to his Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP projector. His screen is rather small at around 80" wide (I think) though the viewing distance is also very close at around 8'.


For this test our only concern is the 1080p DVD upscale performance from the PS3 and XA2. Both players at their default setup. The XA2 playback image controls are all at default. First thing we did is calibrated the White and Black level using the AVIA. Both players have the correct White level with the projector at default Contrast. The PS3 has a slightly higher Black level so the projector Brightness is at -2 for PS3 and -1 for XA2.


We started with the PS3 and then XA2. But the XA2 image at the AVIA DVD menu looked much softer/blurry than the PS3. So we checked the AVIA Resolution pattern and found out the 6.75Mhz pattern is a MESS! The pattern is so blurry that we couldn't make out any of the fine vertical line. The PS3 on the other hand, renders the 6.75Mhz pattern in PERFECTION with all the crystal clean and sharp fine vertical lines!


Next we used the Star Wars ep2 DVD to check upscaling performance. The PS3 performs great with clean and sharp edge around curve and diagonal objects, especially when the scene is in slow panning or slow zoom in/out. And the overall image looked very 3D with good image depth. Then we tried the XA2 and expect the picture to looks even better (despite the blurry AVIA pattern, or maybe that just a minor issue with static image...), and the difference is HUGE, a much much WORSE image. There are scaling artifacts ALL over! Object edges all surrounded with very bad aliasing jaggies and the image just looked flat and soft! What a disappointment!


Ok, the test must go on and the next is deinterlacing performance. I used my usual test clip a crazy edited 3/2, video mixed MTV DVD of a Japanese idol singer. This time the XA2 performed very very good and almost get a PERFECT score IMO. The PS3 also performed very good with that crazy clip which choked most deinterlacer. On the other hand, the XA2 will sometime need a split second to lock on 3/2 mode with a DVD chapter skip while the PS3 can usually lock on instantly. We also tried a pure 60i video DVD and both did very well with a slight edge to the XA2. The XA2 finally met my expectation in deinterlacing quality.


When I saw the cheaper A2 player sometime ago, there was very bad and ugly chroma bug artifact in DVD playback. But such artifact is not visible on the XA2. I guess the 2 players must share the same video codec decoder so the HQV Reon processor does masked the bug on DVD playback. The PS3, of course, give perfect chroma decoding in the first place!


Well that's my little 1080p DVD upscale comparison. I don't know if Morpheus will use the PS3 for DVD now but one thing is sure, he won't use the XA2 for DVD!

Btw, one of the reason Morpheus still uses SDI to the Crystalio II is for a 48Hz 2/2 1080p output to the projector to get rid of 3/2 judder on DVD playback. Now if Sony will give us 24p output for DVD upscale then it will kill ALL DVD players, past, present and future!

regards,


Li On

 

[AdilM]

Did you play w/ the sharpness controls at all?

 

[dicey]

Wow! The PS3 is really starting to show what its truly capable of. Thanks for doing the shootout.

 

[swifty7]

this is confusing because many having both stated that xa2 wipes the floor with ps3 where upscaling is concerned and then there are people like you saying the opposite...hmmmmmmmmmmm. Anyway thanks for the info.

 

[Huey]

2 possibilities:


1) Equipment error.

2) User error.


Reon should beat Sony's scaling solution.

 

[cybersoga]

There was another guy in the XA2 thread who was saying it made a mess of the avia resolution test patterns...

 

[plazman]

I believe Kris Deering at Secrets did a benchmark of the XA2's DVD upscaling performance. Except for the layer change, the XA2 performed close to be best Denon and received a score in the mid to high nineties. I guess you could ask Kris about the details...


I'd take a benchmark test from an independent source like Secrets v. a couple of BD fanboys

I'd chalk the study on this thread to user errors and irrational exhuberance for the device of their choice. IF what is said here were true all XA2 users would be fools. Since the XA2 is universally praised for it's SD upconversion. The REON is real, and it IS good

 

[swifty7]

please keep those feedbacks coming.

 

[Li On]

Sorry forgot to mention the PS3 DVD playback image control Frame/Block noise filters are Off. The default seems at level 2 and some mentioned that blur the image.


I'll try to make some screen shots of the Star Wars 2 DVD for scaling comparsion so you guys with both systems can see for yourself. It may take a few days as I don't work 24 hours here!

Another thing that really make the PS3 usage so much better is the instant respond of any user operation such as DVD menu natvigation. The XA2 works in real SLOWWWWWWWW motion! One really need to kick it's butt multiple time otherwise it just sit there!

regards,


Li On

 

[cybersoga]

Here are some photographs of my 1080p LCD, running at 1080p native res, upscaled standard def dvd from the PS3. I'd be interested to see what these same test patterns look like from the XA2.

 

[dicey]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On /forum/post/0


Another thing that really make the PS3 usage so much better is the instant respond of any user operation such as DVD menu natvigation. The XA2 works in real SLOWWWWWWWW motion! One really need to kick it's butt multiple time otherwise it just sit there!

Li On

I completely agree. The XA2 SUCKS when it comes to responsiveness.

 

[HPforMe]



Quote:
Moving on to the new Silicon Optix HD disc, I set the output of both players to 1080i, which according to SO is what's native on their disc. It makes sense that SO would master this disc at 1080i since this disc is made to torture, er, excuse me, test, video processors and deinterlacers. Two of SO's new tests show SMPTE patterns with resolution wedges. In the video-based test motion is introduced within the pattern while the film-based test sets the entire pattern in motion. Both patterns test the ability of video processors to maintain resolution in the wedges while deinterlacing and processing video and film material. Even the powerful Gennum processing in the VP-11S1, which is a better solution than you'll find in most displays, couldn't maintain complete image integrity here with these tests. However, switching the XA2 to 1080p eliminated all of the artifacts entirely. Gone. The 1080i-1080p deinterlacing in this player looks to be nothing short of outstanding, and according to SO their new pattern indicates the player can detect 3/2 pulldown and properly deinterlace film-based 1080i material to perfection.

Quote:
On standard definition DVD video test patterns, the XA2 exhibits some interesting results. Looking at static frequency bursts and horizontal and vertical wedges on the resolution patterns from Avia, the XA2 shows the sharpest image with 480p, with noticeable roll -off as the standard def signals are upconverted to 720p and 1080i/p. As is typical when I see some softness on this pattern, I saw it with moving pictures as well, including the detail test from Silicon Optix' HQV Benchmark DVD.


Comparing the XA2's performance on these patterns and program material (including the SO detail test) to Toshiba's XA1 at 1080i and Pioneer BDP-HD1 at 1080i/p revealed that both of these players indeed look sharper and crisper overall than the new Toshiba. However, that's not all there is to image quality. Both the Toshiba XA1 and the Pioneer fail to perform anywhere close to the XA2's standards on the deinterlacing tests we have available from SO's own standard definition test discs, and even the Faroudja test DVD I have from way back when. This, and perhaps other functions of the Silicon Optix processing in the XA2, did more than just even the score.


Although the XA1 and the Pioneer looked sharper, the XA2 looked more solid and three-dimensional, had softer and more natural edges, and looked more palpably real with program material. In spite of the crisper look to the other players, the XA2 revealed more fine textures in fabrics of costumes, and other set pieces and held those details rock solid no matter how complex the motion in the image. Although some would gravitate initially to the sharper image, I think over time many would prefer the more natural depth and solidity of the XA2's image, as I did. With standard DVDs, the XA2's 480p output is a bit cleaner and sharper than 720p or 1080i/p, but because you have to go into the Setup menu to change picture resolution it's not very practical to switch on the fly. Plus, if you're like me you'd watch 15 minutes of your next HD DVD thinking how God awful the transfer is, and then you'd remember you didn't switch back to 1080p output after watching your last DVD at 480p! In other words, I miss the Resolution button on the XA1's remote that allowed changing the output resolution on the fly.

http://ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplaye...a2/index2.html

 

[designedfor]

Where is the filter command in the menus? I only can find the DVD Upscaler, also a side note I ran my copy of the orginal star wars 1977, that came as a bonus DVD last year, set the ps3 to upscale widescreen, and set my lcd to zoom 2x, perfect widescreen fit, but the transfer has a lot of noise, looks like ants crawling all over the place during white scenes.

 

[James A. McGahee]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On /forum/post/0


Hi,


I justed visited another forum member Morpheus to checkout 1080p DVD upscale between the Sony PS3 and the Toshiba XA2. Morpheus got the PS3 awhile for blu-ray and recently upgraded from XA1 to XA2 for HD-DVD. He never use both players for DVD. His DVD playback setup is the good old Panasonic RP82 SDI modded to the Crystalio II video processor then HDMI 1080p to his Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP projector. His screen is rather small at around 80" wide (I think) though the viewing distance is also very close at around 8'.


For this test our only concern is the 1080p DVD upscale performance from the PS3 and XA2. Both players at their default setup. The XA2 playback image controls are all at default. First thing we did is calibrated the White and Black level using the AVIA. Both players have the correct White level with the projector at default Contrast. The PS3 has a slightly higher Black level so the projector Brightness is at -2 for PS3 and -1 for XA2.


We started with the PS3 and then XA2. But the XA2 image at the AVIA DVD menu looked much softer/blurry than the PS3. So we checked the AVIA Resolution pattern and found out the 6.75Mhz pattern is a MESS! The pattern is so blurry that we couldn't make out any of the fine vertical line. The PS3 on the other hand, renders the 6.75Mhz pattern in PERFECTION with all the crystal clean and sharp fine vertical lines!


Next we used the Star Wars ep2 DVD to check upscaling performance. The PS3 performs great with clean and sharp edge around curve and diagonal objects, especially when the scene is in slow panning or slow zoom in/out. And the overall image looked very 3D with good image depth. Then we tried the XA2 and expect the picture to looks even better (despite the blurry AVIA pattern, or maybe that just a minor issue with static image...), and the difference is HUGE, a much much WORSE image. There are scaling artifacts ALL over! Object edges all surrounded with very bad aliasing jaggies and the image just looked flat and soft! What a disappointment!


Ok, the test must go on and the next is deinterlacing performance. I used my usual test clip a crazy edited 3/2, video mixed MTV DVD of a Japanese idol singer. This time the XA2 performed very very good and almost get a PERFECT score IMO. The PS3 also performed very good with that crazy clip which choked most deinterlacer. On the other hand, the XA2 will sometime need a split second to lock on 3/2 mode with a DVD chapter skip while the PS3 can usually lock on instantly. We also tried a pure 60i video DVD and both did very well with a slight edge to the XA2. The XA2 finally met my expectation in deinterlacing quality.


When I saw the cheaper A2 player sometime ago, there was very bad and ugly chroma bug artifact in DVD playback. But such artifact is not visible on the XA2. I guess the 2 players must share the same video codec decoder so the HQV Reon processor does masked the bug on DVD playback. The PS3, of course, give perfect chroma decoding in the first place!


Well that's my little 1080p DVD upscale comparison. I don't know if Morpheus will use the PS3 for DVD now but one thing is sure, he won't use the XA2 for DVD!

Btw, one of the reason Morpheus still uses SDI to the Crystalio II is for a 48Hz 2/2 1080p output to the projector to get rid of 3/2 judder on DVD playback. Now if Sony will give us 24p output for DVD upscale then it will kill ALL DVD players, past, present and future!

regards,


Li On

I purchased the A2, took it back, and then purchased the XA2 and downloaded the current firmware. Kept the XA2 for almost a month before deciding to also return it. I have a pretty good DVD Changer and just didn't feel the Toshiba made that much difference for upscaling standard DVDs which is what I am looking for in a HD or BR DVD player. I am glad to have what I was seeing confirmed and am looking forward to giving the PS3 a shot. Thanks for the great comparison!!

 

[James A. McGahee]



Quote:
Originally Posted by swifty7 /forum/post/0


this is confusing because many having both stated that xa2 wipes the floor with ps3 where upscaling is concerned and then there are people like you saying the opposite...hmmmmmmmmmmm. Anyway thanks for the info.

PS3, to my understanding was not capable of upscaling DVDs until this last firmware update.

 

[cybersoga]

Here is what the same test patterns look like from the Toshiba HD-E1 (A2) at 1080i (being converted to 1080p by my display).

 

[sabt]



Quote:
Originally Posted by cybersoga /forum/post/0


Here is what the same test patterns look like from the Toshiba HD-E1 (A2) at 1080i (being converted to 1080p by my display).

That is a HUGE difference. maybe i should return my $275 HD-A2 and get the $600 PS3...nah...PS3 is too much money...


How about sending 480p? My A2's 480p signal looks sharper but then sharpness is not everything in PQ.

 

[Li On]

Your Toshiba shots looked 100 times BETTER than the XA2. The PS3 looks perfect and the E1(A2) looks fine from your display scaling. The XA2, on the other hand, is simply a MESS. The AVIA 6.75Mhz pattern is a complete BLUR!


Looks like no one dare to post XA2 shoot! Maybe I will go check the XA2 again tomorrow and take some photos...


regards,


Li On

 

[swifty7]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm!! that's strange because the XA2 is considered by many to have a better upscailing performance than the PS3 due to the Reon Chip.

 

[sabt]



Quote:
Originally Posted by swifty7 /forum/post/0


hmmmmmmmmmmmm!! that's strange because the XA2 is considered by many to have a better upscailing performance than the PS3 due to the Reon Chip.

for some reason, i've read that the XA2 doesn't do well on the test patterns; actual movies are a different story