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Man, this is turning into a great thread! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #382
Glad you figured things out bud! Impressive output from the S3000i in your large room. Looks like 105 dB at 20 Hz and 110 by 22 or so! Duals of those should give you reference level, or close to it, over a pretty wide bandwidth.
I'm excited about the potential--and excited to see what the V1500 can do. I'm also excited that the result is pretty smooth from 20 down to 15hz (there's a dip in there--but it's pretty darn close).

I feel like dual S3000i will perform really well in my room.
 

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Nathien, just in case you're interested here are the correction values for the RS SPL meter:D

10.0 -22.09
11.2 -19.25
12.5 -16.83
14.0 -14.69
16.0 -12.66
18.0 -10.61
20.0 -9.05
22.4 -7.64
25.0 -6.49
28.0 -5.33
31.5 -4.41
35.5 -3.61
40.0 -2.99
45.0 -2.41
50.0 -1.97
56.0 -1.64
63.0 -1.34
71.0 -1.14
80.0 -0.96
90.0 -0.86
100.0 -0.80
112.0 -0.82
125.0 -0.82
140.0 -0.88
160.0 -0.93
180.0 -0.95
200.0 -0.99
224.0 -0.94
250.0 -0.97
280.0 -1.00
315.0 -1.04
355.0 -1.04
400.0 -0.95
450.0 -0.92
500.0 -1.03
560.0 -0.95
630.0 -0.96
710.0 -0.79
800.0 -0.44
900.0 -0.17
1000.0 0.00

So up to 12 volts from my Onkyo SW preouts at reference:eek:


Cheers and great work my friend, Jeffrey
 

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Discussion Starter #384
Ok folks, two graphs to share tonight before I'm off to watch a movie with the V1500 hooked up. This graph, sadly, does not bode well at all for the V1500. This, my friends, is what the extra $450 gets you with the S3000i. I level matched the V1500 to what I've been doing with my S3000 (as best I could) and ran compression sweeps.

The first graph is the full set of V1500 compression. Unfortunately, port chuffing became so extreme at -5dB that I didn't go ahead and measure at 0dB. That much chuffing would be completely unacceptable for listening.

The second graph is two straight comparisons between the V1500 and the S3000i at -20dB and -5dB respectively. A few things to note:

  • The V1500 is closing the gap around the port tuning as level increases
  • The V1500 rolloff flattens out as level increases--very cool!
  • The S3000i is an output monster--even at the lowest levels it's able to fill my room.
  • From 30hz up, it's not even a contest; the S3000i is just a beast--especially at high levels.
I don't claim these graphs to be perfect; the level matching probably could have been more exact. However, the port chuffing at the highest levels combined with the S3000i eating through some nulls that the V1500 fell worst victim to has this "objective" portion of the testing clearly favoring the S3000i.
 

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Well, in your highest sweep with the V1500(which the S3000i appears to match pretty well even around tune), you do have over 2dB of compression setting in, so there is not much more left in the tank anyway. Looks like it's going to be time to send the V1500 back soon. Although every room is different, it looks as though a couple of things are clear: 1) The S3000i is worth the price difference due to similar output around tune, stronger low frequency extension, and of course higher output above tune. 2) The V1500 is a good value for those that don't have the budget for the S3000i, and does have impressive extension for a ported sub.

Have to say, I am coming away quite impressed by the S3000i.

Now you get to enjoy your new sub. :)
 

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Would love to see your results and see how they compare to mine.
Given your measurements, it's clear your AV7702 SW output is plenty capable of driving your SWs to full output. I therefore seen no benefit to either of us in measuring my unit.

I would just note that my understanding is that the SW output needs to be able to provide 10dB more voltage than the Mains outputs as that is the standard for the LFE channel. That is the reason that you measured so large a number. I haven't actually measured that situation on an AVP (no reason to), it is just my understanding.


Also remember that any EQ boost by Audyssey or manual EQ also adds to the voltage requirement. That also helps to explains why the measured values of both mains and SW outputs seem higher than needed. The values measured are not 'too hot' and will not cause any problems.


The only question in my mind is; why was the SW not responding to the higher voltage provided by the AV7702 during your initial SW testing? Possibly you did not measure with the MM using the same AV7702 input source as you used to test the SWs. Maybe there was another reason? In any case there is no problem with the output capacity of your SW output. There still may be problem with your settings or elsewhere.


It sounds like you are now satisfied that it is working okay so the issue is now moot.
 

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As others have mentioned, this has turned into a great thread thanks to @nalthien. Thank you for all of your perseverance !!

The S3000i is looking like a real contender for my room to replace the XS30-most likely duals if I can swing the right deal to trade/sell my XS30.

The area of concern is what it took to get each of these subs to proper output with a possible culprit being input voltage to the ICE amp. I have not measured voltage but according to the Datasheet, my Anthem MRX510 delivers up to 6V at SW output.


From the technical specs:
PREAMPLIFIER
Maximum Output (<0.1% THD). . . . . .3.5 Vrms, subwoofer channel 6.1 Vrms
 

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Great work nalthien! I'm very impressed about your dedication to share results and get this right more than anything. :cool:

Can you post a comparison of FRs at 90-95db or so? They look very close, but wanted to get an understanding of their responses when in their 'sweet spot' so to speak.

Objectively, it certainly appears that the S3000i is a better performer from an output perspective. Interested to see if that follows through in your listening auditions. We know which one will sound better at their limits...but what happens when played within their limits?
 

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Discussion Starter #390
Although every room is different, it looks as though a couple of things are clear: 1) The S3000i is worth the price difference due to similar output around tune, stronger low frequency extension, and of course higher output above tune. 2) The V1500 is a good value for those that don't have the budget for the S3000i, and does have impressive extension for a ported sub.

Have to say, I am coming away quite impressed by the S3000i.
That's basically the exact impression I'm walking away with. The V1500 is an impressive performer for a $1k budget. The reality is that the S3000i is more expensive because it is a higher performing product.

The area of concern is what it took to get each of these subs to proper output with a possible culprit being input voltage to the ICE amp. I have not measured voltage but according to the Datasheet, my Anthem MRX510 delivers up to 6V at SW output.
While I'm concerned about this as well, I don't want to jump to conclusions about what's happening here. I've collected as much data as I can and I'll give Tom a call today to chat with him.

Can you post a comparison of FRs at 90-95db or so? They look very close, but wanted to get an understanding of their responses when in their 'sweet spot' so to speak.
The lower measurement in my previous graph is around 95dB. I just looked back and realized that due to the legend size, the scale had jumped to 10dB instead of 5dB. I reposted a new version here.
 

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Discussion Starter #391
So last night, we watched The Matrix on Blu-Ray. We did it with the V1500 and the results were somewhat underwhelming. When I had the V1500 in a near-field position, it was really incredible what it was doing. The LFE was extremely tactile and awesome. But, in the position under the stairs, it just felt completely lost. We watched at a master volume setting of -15dB

FWIW, I really don't think The Matrix was a good test. It's actually quite surprising to me that there's not much in the way of great subwoofer demo material in that movie. I had really high hopes for the chopper explosion--and I was entirely let down.

The only location in which the V1500 performed well across the board was a location deemed out of bounds (and subsequently made impossible when the Motif X center channel was added to my setup). In the near-field position, it was amazing for movies and simply unacceptable for music.
 

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Discussion Starter #393
The other night, I watched Terminator 2 on Netflix immediately after figuring out how to get the most output from my system. Acknowledging that Netflix is known for not having stellar audio, I wanted to watch the movie so I put it on. The S3000i continued to live up to its billing as a true powerhouse. Explosions were quite tactile--though nothing like when I had the V1500 near-field! Everything was clean, controlled, and I really have to continue to hand it to Audyssey XT32 for having things so well integrated. Honestly, the plug-and-play nature of XT32 doing the work is really pretty awesome.

I watched T2 at a master volume setting of -20dB.
 

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Discussion Starter #394
Today is a music day with the V1500. I have to say, I am really impressed. The V1500 has turned me into a believer that a ported subwoofer is capable of basically the same level of clarity and crispness as a sealed model. The bass is exceptionally well controlled and smooth all the way through. I'm really enjoying the experience. I believe I can hear a difference; but, it's so slight that I'm pretty confident that there's no way I could pick them out in a proper blind test.

This is a great performance from the V1500, today. Seriously, not a bad thing to say.

A couple of song impressions:

Daft Punk - Too Long / Steam Machine (Alive 2007) - Yes, yes, and more yes! This track should have a rumble basically all the way through and the V1500 delivers in droves! What impresses me the most from this ported subwoofer with this track is how it's able to drive a continuous low note and concurrently drive solid drum kicks with no muddiness whatsoever!

Telefon Tel Aviv - I Lied (Map of What Is Effortless) - So excited about this one! Does the S3000i punch me a bit harder? Yes, it does. Does the V1500 deliver an amazing performance? Hell yes! This track includes some Ultra-lows that the V1500 isn't able to handle as well as the S3000i did in my room. I think going duals would solve this problem, honestly.

Stabbing Westward - Save Yourself (Darkest Days) - This track is notable for including a VERY low note (I need to measure it, honestly) that almost everything I've ever owned has had trouble reproducing. The only system I've owned that was able to do it at all was a pair of JLAudio 10w1s in a sealed box in my car back in the late 90s. Though they could hit the note, it was sloppy. The V1500 barely made it audible which was slightly disappointing. But, since i know it's a difficult note to hit, I'm not too upset.
 

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Nalthien I'm very impressed by your thread, your attention to detail and thoroughness has really turned it into a treasure chest of information worth paying attention to. Nice work nice comparisons.
 

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Discussion Starter #396
Nalthien I'm very impressed by your thread, your attention to detail and thoroughness has really turned it into a treasure chest of information worth paying attention to. Nice work nice comparisons.
Thank you; while I spent over a week in deep frustration, I have learned so much! This experience has been truly awesome. :)
 

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The lower measurement in my previous graph is around 95dB. I just looked back and realized that due to the legend size, the scale had jumped to 10dB instead of 5dB. I reposted a new version here.
Nice work. Now add another s3000i to smooth out the FR beside from the extra output and you will be golden.
 

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Nice work. Now add another s3000i to smooth out the FR beside from the extra output and you will be golden.
That's true, dual S3000i would be almost perfect. One is very very nice, my guess is two would be phenomenal.
 

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Sorry I am late to the party, but happy to see you figured out the solution and enjoyed the learning experience. There was never anything wrong or broken about any of the equipment or wires, but the gain staging of the system needed to be optimized. With the highish voltage available from the Marantz you were clipping the input on the sub and/or the minidsp. This was creating the distortion (clipping) you were hearing and limiting the maximum output of the system. The amplifier should be the first thing to clip, not anything upstream. The solution is move some gain from an upstream device, the AVR, to the downstream device, the sub. This is what using the Pioneer forced you to do. As you discovered, you can do the same thing with the Marantz by lowering the subwoofer trim and/or adding those RCA -12dB attenuators in line and raising the gain control on the sub to compensate. There is a lot of action in the first half of rotation on the gain control, so you might not have to move it much to get where you need to be.

A few suggestions
1. When attempting to confirm speaker performance, use as simple a signal chain as possible. In your case, perhaps going directly from the headphone output of the laptop to the sub. Then add the minidsp. Then add the AVR. Then add Audessey,
2. Always test the tester first! And if at some point something does not seem right, Test it again!. Your moving the mic towards the speaker to see if the level would increase was a good idea.
3. Use meters and ears. When they agree, you know you are not fooling yourself. A simple cheap multimeter like you now have is accurate enough at low frequencies to be a big help.

Your perseverance is admirable and your feeling of accomplishment at figuring it out must be very satisfying. Now go annoy the neighbors!

Brian Oppegaard
SpeakerPower
 

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Discussion Starter #400
Sorry I am late to the party, but happy to see you figured out the solution and enjoyed the learning experience. There was never anything wrong or broken about any of the equipment or wires, but the gain staging of the system needed to be optimized. With the highish voltage available from the Marantz you were clipping the input on the sub and/or the minidsp. This was creating the distortion (clipping) you were hearing and limiting the maximum output of the system. The amplifier should be the first thing to clip, not anything upstream. The solution is move some gain from an upstream device, the AVR, to the downstream device, the sub. This is what using the Pioneer forced you to do. As you discovered, you can do the same thing with the Marantz by lowering the subwoofer trim and/or adding those RCA -12dB attenuators in line and raising the gain control on the sub to compensate. There is a lot of action in the first half of rotation on the gain control, so you might not have to move it much to get where you need to be.
Hi Brian--thanks for chiming in here! I'm excited to get my attenuators so I can set the subwoofer trims back to normal levels. Primarily, I want to be able to bump the trim up a little bit for source material that has lower volume on the low frequencies. At the moment, I'm worried if I dial things up at all at the moment that I'll hit clipping again.

A few suggestions
1. When attempting to confirm speaker performance, use as simple a signal chain as possible. In your case, perhaps going directly from the headphone output of the laptop to the sub. Then add the minidsp. Then add the AVR. Then add Audessey,
Since my only good option for output was HDMI, I need the pre/pro in the mix. That said, I didn't add the MiniDSP into the chain until I knew what was going on. I don't have any EQ on it; simply using it for its -6dB attenuation.

2. Always test the tester first! And if at some point something does not seem right, Test it again!. Your moving the mic towards the speaker to see if the level would increase was a good idea.
I recommend this to everyone; it's something I learned being a software engineer for so many years. When in doubt, check and recheck your methodology for testing.

3. Use meters and ears. When they agree, you know you are not fooling yourself. A simple cheap multimeter like you now have is accurate enough at low frequencies to be a big help.
The multimeter was worth its weight in gold as it led me to the solution. Best $25 I spent on this process--and now that I've shared that information around, maybe others can benefit!

Your perseverance is admirable and your feeling of accomplishment at figuring it out must be very satisfying. Now go annoy the neighbors!
Thank you--and yessir! :D
 
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