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I think your question is a very good one and it deserves some serious thought. I think it comes down to the individual you ask. Most individuals on these threads have a strong desire to achieve the very best sound they can afford. But as we all have learned, sound quality is not something that can just be purchased by throwing money at it (although that does go along way). It also requires hard work, which means measuring, moving equipment, remeasuring, moving equipment again…etc.

I bet most people outside of these audio forums are generally happy with just setting the sub in the corner and turning the system on. But those people most likely don't haunt these threads. So your question is a good one and many of us here will answer: "Because we want the best sound we can get out of our system".
The "New" guy always gets the theater seat with no bass! :D

" I guess I'll sit in "MY" seat, every time I come here I get to sit in the same seat"
 

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Discussion Starter #542
I am assuming this graph is with no eq. If so, I would say you are ready to apply eq to this setup. Seriously doubt you have any phase issue at this point...as you can quite clearly see a solid 5-6 dB increase in output in the lower bass. Proof yet again that dual subs add 6 dB of output without requiring them to be mutually coupled as many mistakenly believe. I am going to bet than once you apply eq to that setup that you will have a very flat response and ready to enjoy your bass nirvana!!
Yes, this is without any EQ. I've got some more work to do before I run EQ--primarily getting some level of attenuation on the line (hence I was going to introduce the MiniDSP) and get the gain matched correctly. Right now, that graph is showing an average response of just over 90dB and this is with the master volume set at -36dB. It's because I was simply doing quick tests after removing the -6dB attenuators.
 
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I actually posed the question as much for myself as anybody else. I have done it with my guitar same as I have my audio system. I'll sit there and mess with settings and pickup height and strings and pedals and on and on. For days. Then it dawns on me that I haven't even actually played the damn guitar. LOL. Sometimes I just gotta leave well enough alone and enjoy the thing. Sometimes I feel the same about my system. And then I get caught up in these threads and start to think the same thing. Just stop messing with it, turn it up and listen! Haha. Thanks for all your thoughts. I enjoy hearing what others think about this stuff.
You are so right. One thing I have said over and over on these threads is to remember to stop messing around trying to achieve perfection and just sit back and relax and ENJOY your system, at least every once in a while. There's no point in spending thousands of dollars on AV equipment if all it does is add frustration to one's life. We buy this stuff to enjoy it. So the key is to make sure we don't forget to enjoy it.

That said, I think we should all own a UMIK and REW. :)
 

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I decided to use the SPL meter and play the tone at the spot of the null--at 53.1hz. Randomly, there would be this sudden drop off for a fraction of a second. I pulled the attenuators out of the signal chain...
If you don't mind how do you play the (tone?) at the spot of the null at 53.1 Hz in REW settings.
@Basshead when you say time to apply EQ are you referring to miniDSP, mine's still in the box?:( TIA
Cheers Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter #545
If you don't mind how do you play the (tone?) at the spot of the null at 53.1 Hz in REW settings.
Rather than using the Measure option, you can use the "Generator" in REW. You select a Sine Wave and set the frequency to 53.1hz. Then, you can use the REW SPL meter to see the SPL. Since it's a sine wave, the SPL should hold perfectly steady if everything is working properly.

@Basshead when you say time to apply EQ are you referring to miniDSP, mine's still in the box?:( TIA
EQ can be applied in a lot of different ways. A MiniDSP does have 4 EQs for up to 6 parameters each. The most common EQ that people use these days is applied by Audyssey or MCACC or Dirac--some type of automatic EQ system.
 
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@nalthien have you solved the cancellation problem you were having?
I am going to take some baby steps towards REW by ordering a UMIK-1 when I get my second sub and use it with my iPad. I know it won't be as good as using REW with a laptop, but it's a start. At least I can see if I have any MAJOR issues when adding a second sub. Then hopefully for xmas I can get a cheap laptop with HDMI and start using REW.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #547
@nalthien have you solved the cancellation problem you were having?
Yes, I have (per my last graph). I didn't work on tweaking any more last night. The overall gain is still too high on the subwoofers; but, that's ok at the moment. I'll get back to it this evening.

I am going to take some baby steps towards REW by ordering a UMIK-1 when I get my second sub and use it with my iPad. I know it won't be as good as using REW with a laptop, but it's a start. At least I can see if I have any MAJOR issues when adding a second sub. Then hopefully for xmas I can get a cheap laptop with HDMI and start using REW.:)
I'm glad you're considering that route, at least. Still, you're talking about spending $1250 on a second subwoofer vs. $75 for a UMIK-1 and maybe $200 for a low-end machine with an HDMI output for running REW. You should ask yourself the question: "Am I looking for the best possible sound in my room or am I looking to have dual subwoofers?" Depending on how you answer that question, you'll know what to prioritize first.
 
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Discussion Starter #548
A couple of quick updates:

I ran 3-position Audyssey last night and things are looking pretty good (graphs to come after 8-position gets run tonight)

I watched Thor last night and WHOA-HO! :D

Audyssey XT32 seems to be somewhat messed up with integrating dual subwoofers when they are connected through wireless adapters on my Marantz. I've taken to setting the distance factor on the AV7702 identically and manually dialing in the "distance" control on my S3000i to get the phase alignment correct. It's giving me MUCH better results.

A little more tweaking left to do; but, I'm exceptionally happy with my dual S3000i setup. I'm looking at +/- 3dB down to around 15hz in my huge room and I really don't think I could ask for more--especially from sealed enclosures!
 

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Sounds like a big congratulations are in order! BTW, how does the wife like your new toys?
 

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Sounds like a big congratulations are in order! BTW, how does the wife like your new toys?
The eye-rolling has dwindled quite a bit since she put her own music on at reference levels the other day while I took the kids outside to play.

Also, I'll post pictures of where I've located them. They are well-separated from the room and really aren't noticeable unless you're looking for them.

I'm pleased with my 3.2 setup. Since I listen to music a lot, it's often truly running in a 2.2; that said, the Motif X center was a great investment for when we're watching movies or TV. I'll add more channels after we move later this year (or early next year).
 

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The eye-rolling has dwindled quite a bit since she put her own music on at reference levels the other day while I took the kids outside to play.

Also, I'll post pictures of where I've located them. They are well-separated from the room and really aren't noticeable unless you're looking for them.

I'm pleased with my 3.2 setup. Since I listen to music a lot, it's often truly running in a 2.2; that said, the Motif X center was a great investment for when we're watching movies or TV. I'll add more channels after we move later this year (or early next year).
That’s great to hear! Less eye rolls are always a good thing :D. And we’re all anxious to see the photos.

Because your Theos has a pretty large soundstage and extends well past the speakers on each side, even a 3.2 setup is impressive for movies. I bet the Motif X filled things out beautifully. The Theos gives you an articulate and encompassing soundstage by themselves and are made for critical music listening.

Word of caution. If you have the movie, “Edge of Tomorrow” make sure you turn it down and test before going real loud. It has made a lot of subs cry. Luckily, that passage is at the very start of the movie (I forgot where, but it’s like the 15 second mark or so).
 

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Discussion Starter #552
That’s great to hear! Less eye rolls are always a good thing :D. And we’re all anxious to see the photos.
Yeah, and I've been promising those photos for a while! Unfortunately, with two young children, my living room spends much of its time completely covered in toys. I do "quick cleanup" jobs when they go to bed; but man-oh-man!

Because your Theos has a pretty large soundstage and extends well past the speakers on each side, even a 3.2 setup is impressive for movies. I bet the Motif X filled things out beautifully. The Theos gives you an articulate and encompassing soundstage by themselves and are made for critical music listening.
It's been many years now since I've even experienced true "surround" sound at home--I had a dedicated space back when I still lived in Atlanta. The Theos alone were doing a great job for movies; but, the Motif really isolates that dialog really well and allows for more seating positions when watching movies. The Theos soundstage is exceptionally wide (Daft Punk has explored this nicely on their Random Access Memories album).

Word of caution. If you have the movie, “Edge of Tomorrow” make sure you turn it down and test before going real loud. It has made a lot of subs cry. Luckily, that passage is at the very start of the movie (I forgot where, but it’s like the 15 second mark or so).
Heheheh...I've been warned about this one a dozen times now. I'm holding out until I can get ahold of a Blu Ray copy rather than watching any streamed version. :D
 

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Nalthien could you describe the differences you noticed going from just one to two subs.
Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #555
I will take a wild guess and say smoother response across more area of the room, slightly more headroom and increased output capability, and lower THD :D
+1 for wild guesses! :D

In more subjective terms, the sound is audibly "more complete." I think it's a little funny, honestly--but the flatter response is definitely noticeable for both music and movies.

Literally everything beast said above is accurate. I've got about 5-6dB of extra headroom. I plan to do compression graphs next week to see what range I've got reference capability--I'm guessing down to at least 20--if not 17 or so. THD at typical levels (-15dB - -10dB) is basically non-existent.

The reality is: diminishing returns are real. Is the first S3000i worth $1500? Absolutely. Is the second? The question gets a little harder to answer and depends on your noticing and caring about more subtle differences and the amount of area covered with relatively flat response.
 

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Adding a second sub can be a real upgrade, as well as a real wallet killer. I'm still surprised at what adding a cheap sub like the Bic V-1020 near-field to my MLP did to increase the overall output when coupled with the XS30. Anybody looking to add a second sub, but are hesitant to drop big $$ for a match to their existing sub, should experiment with a less capable sub near-field. My game room set up is about as odd ball as you can get. Expensive XS30 sealed sub paired with a ported V-1020 I got off craigslist for 25 bucks. My son is playing Plants vs. Zombies Garden Warfare right now and every shot sounds and feels like a gut punch. It's awesome.
 

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Adding a second sub can be a real upgrade, as well as a real wallet killer. I'm still surprised at what adding a cheap sub like the Bic V-1020 near-field to my MLP did to increase the overall output when coupled with the XS30. Anybody looking to add a second sub, but are hesitant to drop big $$ for a match to their existing sub, should experiment with a less capable sub near-field. My game room set up is about as odd ball as you can get. Expensive XS30 sealed sub paired with a ported V-1020 I got off craigslist for 25 bucks. My son is playing Plants vs. Zombies Garden Warfare right now and every shot sounds and feels like a gut punch. It's awesome.
I will add that mixing ported and sealed can be a little tricky. Not impossible, but not as easy and integrating two like styles of subwoofage. Since the phase changes at port tune and leading up to it, sometimes you will see cancellation between sealed and ported at that frequency. It can easily be overcome at times and near impossible in other situations.....
 

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Adding a second sub can be a real upgrade, as well as a real wallet killer. I'm still surprised at what adding a cheap sub like the Bic V-1020 near-field to my MLP did to increase the overall output when coupled with the XS30. Anybody looking to add a second sub, but are hesitant to drop big $$ for a match to their existing sub, should experiment with a less capable sub near-field. My game room set up is about as odd ball as you can get. Expensive XS30 sealed sub paired with a ported V-1020 I got off craigslist for 25 bucks. My son is playing Plants vs. Zombies Garden Warfare right now and every shot sounds and feels like a gut punch. It's awesome.
There are pluses and minuses to adding a 2nd lesser sub to a high performance high quality sub. The plus is cost. The minus is integrating the 2nd sub properly can be an issue when it comes to sound quality. It gets even more difficult when you combine ported and sealed. It certainly can be done but it's not easy. The lesser sub will run out of steam long before the quality sub in intense moments and that will lead to sound issues.

Usually it's best to add a 2nd identical sub when you go duals, this just makes things easier. If you can't go with two identical subs then the 2nd best option is to go with either two ported or two sealed. But if you can't do that either than mixing is the only option left. I tried it once but couldn't get it to where it sounded good. But I have read posts where people have said they pulled it off. So if you got it to work than that's great. It's a good way to save a chunk of change.
 

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I will add that mixing ported and sealed can be a little tricky. Not impossible, but not as easy and integrating two like styles of subwoofage. Since the phase changes at port tune and leading up to it, sometimes you will see cancellation between sealed and ported at that frequency. It can easily be overcome at times and near impossible in other situations.....
I think I lucked out to a certain degree. I know the 3 hot spots in my room, with one being right next to my couch. I actually just tried the V-1020 near-field just for fun, not really expecting it to mesh well with the XS30. After just about 15 minutes of tweaking I was absolutely floored at what the V-1020 added. The XS30 is already a 30Hz and up beast, but the addition of the Bic really took it up another level. The Bic actually goes lower in range than I would expect it to. Plus near-field you get that tactical feel.

I wouldn't recommend intentionally buying a ported to go with a sealed, or the other way around, but say you had a SVS PB2000 and were thinking of two subs, it would be worth a shot to try the PB1000 if you were wanting to save money.
 

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Yeah, and I've been promising those photos for a while! Unfortunately, with two young children, my living room spends much of its time completely covered in toys. I do "quick cleanup" jobs when they go to bed; but man-oh-man!



C'mon B post your room photos please, I need some encouragement as I know you have a big untreated room and not a dedicated space. I need some reassurance I can accomplish my goals with my non dedicated room as you have. :)
Cheers Jeff
 
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