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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so this may be a dumb question, but i was curious if anyone can give some insight.


Most of the seperates you see from companies like Denon, Marantz, Oknyo, etc. are in the multiple thousand's of dollars range.


Now, i have a Marantz SR5003 receiver, it decodes HD audio, and pretty much everything else. Has HDMI switching, etc etc etc.


Now i have connections that i could easily hook up a seperate amp to it, in effect acheiving the same results as a "seperate".


So, i guess my question is what is the advantage of one of these high end pre-amps, like for example the AV8003.


Wouldnt it be far more cost effective for a person to buy a quality amp, and get an AVR that decodes all the formats etc he/she needs, and just use it as a "pre-amp". We all know the vast majority of amps in AVR's are garbage anyways, so its not like you're really "wasting" anything in the end result.


The only thing i can really find that clearly seems "better" is the quality of the video processor. Though i find that hard to justify a $1500 or better price difference over something like my sr5003. Of course, i've never used or experienced seperates so i can't speak, for all i know it could be night and day difference, i guess i'm just skeptical.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir /forum/post/16991479


Ok, so this may be a dumb question, but i was curious if anyone can give some insight.


Most of the seperates you see from companies like Denon, Marantz, Oknyo, etc. are in the multiple thousand's of dollars range.


Now, i have a Marantz SR5003 receiver, it decodes HD audio, and pretty much everything else. Has HDMI switching, etc etc etc.


Now i have connections that i could easily hook up a seperate amp to it, in effect acheiving the same results as a "seperate".


So, i guess my question is what is the advantage of one of these high end pre-amps, like for example the AV8003.


Wouldnt it be far more cost effective for a person to buy a quality amp, and get an AVR that decodes all the formats etc he/she needs, and just use it as a "pre-amp". We all know the vast majority of amps in AVR's are garbage anyways, so its not like you're really "wasting" anything in the end result.


The only thing i can really find that clearly seems "better" is the quality of the video processor. Though i find that hard to justify a $1500 or better price difference over something like my sr5003. Of course, i've never used or experienced seperates so i can't speak, for all i know it could be night and day difference, i guess i'm just skeptical.

Have you given any thought to the Emotiva amp. For example you could get either a 3,5,or7 channel amp coupled with using your AVR for the surrs. which really dont need alot of power anyway. Your thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by homer612 /forum/post/16991515


Have you given any thought to the Emotiva amp. For example you could get either a 3,5,or7 channel amp coupled with using your AVR for the surrs. which really dont need alot of power anyway. Your thoughts?

Thats actually exactly what i was thinking.


I mean you figure a receiver like mine, or any similar level denon, onkyo, etc. and an emotiva 5ch amp giving 200w to each speaker, and you're sitting chill for less than you would pay for even one of the seperates from a company like marantz.


I guess my main question is what is the manufacturers justification for charging $2300 dollars just for an pre-amp?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir /forum/post/16991524


Thats actually exactly what i was thinking.


I mean you figure a receiver like mine, or any similar level denon, onkyo, etc. and an emotiva 5ch amp giving 200w to each speaker, and you're sitting chill for less than you would pay for even one of the seperates from a company like marantz.


I guess my main question is what is the manufacturers justification for charging $2300 dollars just for an pre-amp?

Its just so happen that I too am thinking of the same. I have an onkyo 875 rated at 140wpc but thats not that all channels can be driven simo . So I am thinking of getting a 3 channel amp with at least 200 WPC all driven. and then just simply use the avr as a pre/pro and drive the 4 surrs. via the avr.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by homer612 /forum/post/16991587


Its just so happen that I too am thinking of the same. I have an onkyo 875 rated at 140wpc but thats not that all channels can be driven simo . So I am thinking of getting a 3 channel amp with at least 200 WPC all driven. and then just simply use the avr as a pre/pro and drive the 4 surrs. via the avr.

See, i kind of lucked out in that the receiver i bought actually has a good amp in it. According to tests done by Home Theater Magazine, my AVR which is rated at 90w/ch, actually provides 88.2 w/ch with all 7 channels driven. I am running 5 channels, and according to their measurements, its providing 103 w/ch with 5 channels driven.


So, in theory i actually have a "real" amp.


My speakers are rated at 150w, so i'm wondering if that extra 50w will really make a difference.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir /forum/post/16991628


See, i kind of lucked out in that the receiver i bought actually has a good amp in it. According to tests done by Home Theater Magazine, my AVR which is rated at 90w/ch, actually provides 88.2 w/ch with all 7 channels driven. I am running 5 channels, and according to their measurements, its providing 103 w/ch with 5 channels driven.


So, in theory i actually have a "real" amp.


My speakers are rated at 150w, so i'm wondering if that extra 50w will really make a difference.

It all depends how eff. your spks. are and the ohm ratings. For example if your frts. were 4-6 ohms and low sen. you would benefit. But as all others would say its all subjective. Sometimes I think us guys are just looking to spend some money because if you listen to your system with others in the room .. the first thing I get is : whata hell of a system" you know what I mean?
 

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It does seem funny when companies like Onkyo/Integra sell processors for $1800 MSRP (who actually pays that though?) which supposedly carry the same innards as their higher line receivers sans the amps. If this is true, then buying the higher line receiver should be a no-brainer as the amps are essentially 'free' for the same money. And of course, shopping at places like ClubOnkyo and AC4L.com will save a good deal of money on any of these normally expensive items.


But as to the point ... are the innards the same? I can't say as I have no higher level Onkyo receiver with which to compare to my PR-SC885 processor. I can say that upon arrival my unit had several minor issues which necessitated removing the case. Despite the issues which were quickly sorted out, the interior layout minus the amping, heat sinks, etc. was very clean. This supposedly has a number of advantages. The noise floor on this piece is the best I have ever experienced ... and I come from a long history of using mainly HK receivers as preamps. Whether there is substantial difference in interior components and their quality level between processors and their 'cousin' high level receivers within brand I can't say.


All I know is I paid $800 for a superb pre/pro which gives me the best SQ I've experienced in-house for many years. But not knowing if the interior content is exactly the same as the related receiver(s) is what made me seek the right comparative price and deal.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/16991700


It does seem funny when companies like Onkyo/Integra sell processors for $1800 MSRP (who actually pays that though?) which supposedly carry the same innards as their higher line receivers sans the amps. If this is true, then buying the higher line receiver should be a no-brainer as the amps are essentially 'free' for the same money. And of course, shopping at places like ClubOnkyo and AC4L.com will save a good deal of money on any of these items.


But as to the point ... are the innards the same? I can't say as I have no higher level Onkyo receiver with which to compare to my PR-SC885 processor. I can say that upon arrival my unit had several minor issues which necessitated removing the case. Despite the issues which were quickly sorted out, the interior layout minus the amping, heat sinks, etc. was very clean. This has a number of advantages. The noise floor on this piece is the best I have ever experienced ... and I come from a long history of using mainly HK receivers as preamps. Whether there is substantial difference in interior components and their quality level between processors and their 'cousin' high level receivers within brand I can't say.


All I know is I paid $800 for a superb pre/pro which gives me the best SQ I've experienced in-house for many years. But not knowing if the interior content is exactly the same as the related receiver(s) is what made me seek the right comparative price and deal.

what amp do you use
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/16991700


...This has a number of advantages. The noise floor on this piece is the best I have ever experienced ...

I have not noticed noise floor to be a problem in any recent receiver I have heard.


Do a lot of people hear a difference in noise from brand to brand?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir /forum/post/16991524


Thats actually exactly what i was thinking.


I mean you figure a receiver like mine, or any similar level denon, onkyo, etc. and an emotiva 5ch amp giving 200w to each speaker, and you're sitting chill for less than you would pay for even one of the seperates from a company like marantz.


I guess my main question is what is the manufacturers justification for charging $2300 dollars just for an pre-amp?

Basically it's economies of scale, how many receivers do they sell vs pre-amps.... the more of something you make, the cheaper it becomes to make.

But in some cases there's better engineering and components. I've used both as a front end and I prefer pre pros but I've had a few receivers that are in the same league.

Another value option is get a mid priced receiver and let it power the surrounds and just go with a two or three channel amp for the mains. Receiver amps are not "crap" once you get to the middle of the lines and up and the load they have to handle is considerably reduced if you use a sub and crossover most of your speakers.


You'll get more mileage out of good room correction and acoustic treatments than you would with any combo choice anyways.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16991910


I have not noticed noise floor to be a problem in any recent receiver I have heard.


Do a lot of people hear a difference in noise from brand to brand?

Hello Michael,


I could always hear a slight sound from my speakers when right on top of them. This was true with several different mid-high level HK receivers ... used both as such and as prepros. But it wasn't audible from my seating by any means. The only thing I've ever experienced like that was audible hum which was sorted out years ago. I have also popped the tops of a number of HK receivers and have always admired their layouts. Any number of write-ups through the years have also remarked on the HK trait of proper layout. And yet I still heard noise. Faint yes, but noise still.


With the 885 however there is dead silence, even with my ear pushed right up to the driver. Same speakers, same amping, same wiring, same level matched volume setting. There really is a distinct difference in my experience which verifies for me at least one of the supposed benefits of separates ... the isolation and cleanliness of signal path. I would like to think there are other benefits as well which account for the cost differential. But not knowing exactly what is inside any related receiver brethren, aside from the obvious power supply differences, I couldn't say for certain.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir /forum/post/16991628


See, i kind of lucked out in that the receiver i bought actually has a good amp in it. According to tests done by Home Theater Magazine, my AVR which is rated at 90w/ch, actually provides 88.2 w/ch with all 7 channels driven. I am running 5 channels, and according to their measurements, its providing 103 w/ch with 5 channels driven.


So, in theory i actually have a "real" amp.


My speakers are rated at 150w, so i'm wondering if that extra 50w will really make a difference.

An extra 50 wpc is essentially negligible. It's not a 50% increase in SPL, it's 1.5db increase in SPL vs 100 wpc, which is essentially inaudible.


I have a thread that covers some of the amp issues you have questions about here .


Lots of people who laud separates believe that they have magic pixie fairy dust that makes everything more wonderful, simply because they are separates. It's pretty much the same sort of thing as where people think bottled water is better simply because it's bottled.


Using an AVR as your pre-pro and adding a separate amp if you need more power is the thing to do that makes by far the most sense in 99.5% of the cases.
 

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Quote:
I guess my main question is what is the manufacturers justification for charging $2300 dollars just for an pre-amp

Exclusivity


BS


Exclusivity


BS

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16991910


I have not noticed noise floor to be a problem in any recent receiver I have heard.


Do a lot of people hear a difference in noise from brand to brand?


Okay, you guys will like this because I will post there is a difference.


I compared these thread products over the past 3 months.


NAD T-175

Onkyo 885

Denon 2809


I have a Active setup using a DCX 2496 active crossover, its has XLRs and its a pro audio product so its going to highlight noise in my system very easily when nothing is playing.


The NAD T-175 had a lower noise floor then the Denon 2809, My small hum/hiss was eliminated but during playback there is no issue between either since the noise even on the Denon 2809 is low enough not to matter. I thnink the difference here was the grounding on each product.


The Onkyo has XLR pre/outs and that is even better for my setup then the above too. I have no RCA to XLR problems now and everything from gain structures to noise levels is just great.


I tried to get measurements of the noise level differences but my room was not quiet enough to get a accurate measurement.
 
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