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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HI all


I was on here a while back with some concerns about my living room and setting up a system. I had the TV above the firplace in the photos below . It was suggested I move it down to where I did and at the time I said there was no chance my wife would go for it. ... However , she got on board and I moved it.


Ive taken some photos to show you the entire setup in general and see your feedback on placement or anything else you want to comment on. There are one or two older ones of the room youll notice I dont have speakers installed yes but they were just to get an idea of the size. The specific questions I havce relate to the subwoofers and what kinds of pro and cons I shoud look out for by having this many Subs. Obviously 3 subs are def tech but 1 is a sony. Should I even be using it? My thought was it couldnt hurt but... who knows...



I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 powering it and used the MCACC to calibrate evertything

The speakers I have are:


L and R -def tech Bp-8040-Towers

Center - def tech BP-8040

Side Surrounds - Martin Logan Passages- In wall W/directional tweeter.

Rear Surrounds Def tech Mythos Gems On stands.


Subwoofers:

2 built in subwoofers on the towers

1 def tech ProCenter 1000

1 Sony 12 Inch SA-WM40(Older subwoofer I had lying around)



All connected with LFE







 

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My suggestion is to get it all set up and see how it sounds. The problem with subs built into towers is you can't move them to where the bass would sound better because the speakers need to be where they are. That's what makes bass so difficult to reign in, the subwoofers need to go where they need to go in order to get the best bass you can get (it's a physics thing). With built in subs you lose that flexibility.

 

The problem with multiple subs can be getting them to integrate together. But once you dial them in then multiple subs is the way to go in order to smooth out the bass across more listening positions.

 

Having said all that, you may just find that the way you have everything set up is perfect for you and your bass sounds good. If so great. If it doesn't, well… that opens up topics for more discussion.

 

Regarding the Sony sub, try the set up with it and with out it and stick with whichever one you like best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for the reply. Im sorry if I didnt explain it fully but I already have it setup and been using all 4 for a while just as the photo shows. all in front . Ive messed tuen the sony on and off like you said and things started to sound depper. correct me if I am wrong but the procenter 1000 sub is rated at being able to hit a pretty low freq but I have read their numbers are not very accurate. The PC1000 has little rubber pieces on its feet but it moves a good 5 inches over the puriod of a movie and you can kinda tell where the sound is coming from. I almost wish I would put a weight on top of it because it seems to sound better when it is planted solidly( if I sit on it to test it). im not sure if being able to audibly locate the source of the bass is a 100% way to tell it is not hitting the lower freq but if it is .... then it struggles here.



When I run the Sony, even though its cheap and old it sounds like it hits all the low lows better. I set the cutoff lower so it focusus on 80hz and below . It does well with the strong rumble that takes over the room with no distortion or vibration anywhere. I was hoping to find an easy concrete answer of whether or not mixing brands was OK or not but but it sounds like Its all relative to how you place and tune them.



Like i mentioned I used the MCACC on the reciever to calibrate. other than that I havent "dialed in" anything really. I hope I dont embarass myself by asking but how do you dial all 4 in to work well. I have an SPL meter and a RTA analyzer I use for my car audio if that is something you can give me some directions on how to use in terms of dialing in subwoofers.




As a side note. I was reading about how some people use the speaker level inputs instead of the LFE channel and hook up a sub to the rear satellites. (essentially making my rears capable of full range sound. ). I was thinking about trying that with the sony and seeing if that helps anything. Setting the sony away from the others on LFE and playing only the rear sound. Does anyone do this or read anything about this ?
 

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Get an OmniMic or REW and measure the frequency response at your listening position. Unless you have tools that can show how your system is performing it's all just guess work...


There's no need to connect your sub to the satellites. When you ran MCAAC it should have configured your satellites as "Small" and would then route the satellite's low frequencies to the sub.


I doubt that either the 8040's or your ProSub 1000 have much output below 30 Hz. I measured a friend's ProSub 1000 and it didn't. DefTech's specs are meaningless as they don't qualify their frequency response figures with +/- 3 dB ratings or list the SPL they measured at. (eg. A claimed frequency response of "18 - 150 Hz" isn't meaningful if it's +/- 20 dB and the measurement was taken at an average SPL of only 60 dB.)


I don't know well the Sony sub performs but it may need to do the heavy lifting below 30 Hz in your room. If you get a measurement tool and can post a chart of where you're at, we'd be in a better position to offer advice. Given what I've seen from the ProSub 1000 you may need to consider sub upgrades if you're interested in significantly better performance, especially given your large open floorplan listening area.
 

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Good advice by Henrich. If you really want to dial in your subs then you need the right equipment to do so. As far as your sub walking around the room you can always get a small rug or piece of carpeting and place it under the sub and it should stay in place. 

 

The final question is, do you like the sound of the built in subs? If so then a little tweaking is all that's needed, but if your room is really lacking bass then you may need to start considering some dedicated subwoofers. 
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you both for your help. After reading what you said I watched a few tutorials on the Room eq software and equipment, Just so I didnt have to ask too many questions



From what I gathered I need to get a USB to RCA output tool (berringer was the one on the tutorial) and use that in connection with my SPL meter. to find out what setting for the optimal FREQ

I am a little confused because I have 4 subwoofers meaning I would need to run this room eq for all of them individually and then I would have 4 settings total but no idea how to integrate all of them.



Right now I have RCA splitters on my LFE channel so that all 4 are fed off one signal. Would I be plugging all 4 into the USB RCA output so that the meter was measuring all 4 at once and end up with one set of settings. Another way to explain what Im asking is would I set it up so that my SPL Meter was listening to all 4 subwoofers at once ( playin the sound generated by the Roomeq Software) which would get me the settings neccessary to get the Target response I asked the software to provide. .


pioneer has a settin for" S-wave" with 3 filters each with its own adjustments for FREQ, Q , and ATT(db). Am I right in saying that the eq wizard would be getting me settings to be entered manually into that s-wave feature.




That was alot of technical questions and I just did a fast tutorial so I hope I made enough sense that you could understand what I was asking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3  /t/1514547/questions-about-my-4-subwoofers-in-7channel-setup#post_24276597


Get an OmniMic or REW and measure the frequency response at your listening position. Unless you have tools that can show how your system is performing it's all just guess work...


There's no need to connect your sub to the satellites. When you ran MCAAC it should have configured your satellites as "Small" and would then route the satellite's low frequencies to the sub.


I doubt that either the 8040's or your ProSub 1000 have much output below 30 Hz. I measured a friend's ProSub 1000 and it didn't. DefTech's specs are meaningless as they don't qualify their frequency response figures with +/- 3 dB ratings or list the SPL they measured at. (eg. A claimed frequency response of "18 - 150 Hz" isn't meaningful if it's +/- 20 dB and the measurement was taken at an average SPL of only 60 dB.)


I don't know well the Sony sub performs but it may need to do the heavy lifting below 30 Hz in your room. If you get a measurement tool and can post a chart of where you're at, we'd be in a better position to offer advice. Given what I've seen from the ProSub 1000 you may need to consider sub upgrades if you're interested in significantly better performance, especially given your large open floorplan listening area.


I mentioned above that I felt the def techs did not perform to their numbers and that I think the sony is doing the heavy lifting . Thats why I am hoping to keep it in the setup. Even using the room Eq wizard setup there isnt any mention of placement . so to make sure I understand. The software is more to tell you how to to tune them from where they are already set and measure their response as is. to find better placement I I would need to move them and re run to see how the environment responds to new placement . ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater  /t/1514547/questions-about-my-4-subwoofers-in-7channel-setup#post_24278166


Good advice by Henrich. If you really want to dial in your subs then you need the right equipment to do so. As far as your sub walking around the room you can always get a small rug or piece of carpeting and place it under the sub and it should stay in place. 


The final question is, do you like the sound of the built in subs? If so then a little tweaking is all that's needed, but if your room is really lacking bass then you may need to start considering some dedicated subwoofers. 



Im sorry im confused. I mean no disrespect , especially since you are one of the few who are willing to help me out. But the second part of your response above makes it seem like you didnt read anything i put up .. The built in subs are a bonus but dont do it all for me. I never used them alone and always had atleast one dedicated sub. then i added a 2nd dedicated sub.because it was lying around. .. So Ive already considered a dedicated subwoofer(s), bought them, and been using them for a while.. So im not sure why you responded with that?



There is one photo with no subwoofers on the floor that I put up which could be misleading . Is that what made you think there was not any dedicated subwoofers? There is another one in the line up that shows the 2 subs next to the speakers lined up in front of me .



Again I mean no disrespect . It could be my horrible typing skills are to blame... lol



I am however understanding the first part about the equipment needed to dial them in. I am going to focus the the future of this thread on that idea. The software. hardware . and instructions of how to get the most of of whats there.



Thanks again for responding
 

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Oops, my bad, I misunderstood how you had your system set up and it's good that you have dedicated subs that you can move around because you may need to.
The software will tell you the information regarding how well your setup is running but then you have to do something about it. With bass nothing substitutes for location of the subwoofers, it's kind of like real-estate; location, location, location. You can use your SPL meter to get a good idea where in the room the best locations for your subs are by essentially doing the sub crawl.

 

To do that, take a subwoofer, place it where your main LP is, and play the pink noise from your AVR through your sub and crawl around the room looking for the locations that have the best readings. Wherever that or those places are is where you would ideally put your subwoofer(s). Putting your subs in the best locations should take care of many bass problems but to really adjust it you need use REW to see how good it is and then get something like a minDSP which would allow you to eq your subs. Here's a good thread on REW  and here's one on miniDSP .

 

Not everyone wants to get as involved as all that and you can often get very good bass just using the sub crawl. But the sub crawl won't tell you how well your system is integrated or let you EQ anything. I still haven't moved into the world of REW or miniDSP yet because it's got a bit of a learning curve and right now I'm happy with the results I have from just moving my subs into their proper locations. But I think I will soon be investing in REW myself. So if you decide to pursue that there a lot of guys here who will be able to help you out, but I'm not one of them (yet).

 

Hope some of this helped. 
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluRay Hoarder  /t/1514547/questions-about-my-4-subwoofers-in-7channel-setup/0_50#post_24278632


From what I gathered I need to get a USB to RCA output tool (berringer was the one on the tutorial) and use that in connection with my SPL meter. to find out what setting for the optimal FREQ

Right now I have RCA splitters on my LFE channel so that all 4 are fed off one signal. Would I be plugging all 4 into the USB RCA output so that the meter was measuring all 4 at once and end up with one set of settings.

I use an OmniMic so the following procedure refers to that software. The REW thread should have instructions on how to use that app. BTW, it's best to wear ear plugs if you play frequency sweeps at high SPL. Hearing damage is a female dog...


Install the OmniMic software on your laptop computer. Mount the mic on a tripod facing up at ear level in your listening postion. Plug the USB mic into the laptop & launch the measurement software. Adjust the frequency end points and smoothing level as desired. An overall FR chart showing a frequency range of 10 Hz to 20 KHz (1/6 smoothing) is nice to have. If your crossover is set at 80 Hz you can get a more detailed & useful view of your sub's response by changing the OmniMic settings to display a frequency range of 10 Hz to 100 Hz and set smoothing to None. Turn off OmniMic's "auto" check box and press the down arrow below it until the vertical dB range goes up to 100 dB. Play the frequency sweeps on track 2 of the included CD. Raise the AVR volume so the response is peaking somewhere north of 80 dB on the chart. Save the chart.


Here's an example of an OmniMic measurement of an Outlaw LFM-1 EX sub (no EQ):



If you take measurements with your current setup (all subs playing) and the chart looks good, you're done. If there are problems and you want to get to the cause, you'll want to measure each sub individually to see if any reside in poor locations. Move any poorly performing subs if needed & remeasure. If you relocate any subs you'll want to rerun MCAAC when you're done. If your unhappy with the response & not sure how to proceed, post your charts & let us know what you're unhappy with.
 
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