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Discussion Starter #1
On a off the cuff, quick bit of testing of the two cards VS one another, the 8500 seems to be coming off fairly well.


The Radeon LE I am using has no VGA connector, and upgraded pats on board. The conection to the PJ, is hardwired with custom cabling.


I am running the Radeon 8500 straight into the PJ, with a VGA to RGBHV breakout cable.


The test is being done at 1920x1200 at 72hz.


On the Nokia Monitor test program, both are fully able to reslove the 1920x1200 in the horizontal and vertical domain.


This suggests that the Filtering on the 8500 is considerably improved over that of the Stock Radeon LE. I had to remove the filtering on the LE to get any dynamics in the image, or absolute resolution.The LE had all output filtering removed. To be fiair, the Radeon LE had a small amount of vestigal ghosting that I had not bothered to remove. This ghosting is not as apparent in the 8500, being it is properly impedance matched to the PJ's second 75 ohm terminated input. Basically, no ghosting. So, I took a hard-wired, highly modifed Radeon LE,and compared it to the stock 8500. This would be an unfair test for the 8500.


It came out well for it, so, anyway, this means that the card is an excellent candidate for HTPC use. The secondary DVI (can be used as VGA) port allows for secondary monitor function, as well as a composite /S-video hookup being on the card.


After being run in stock from, the testing will move to modifed function on the 8500.


I have not tried any DVD yet, but will try this in a few minutes,and get back and report on that. i will remember that the cabling is different, and make allowances for that.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I'm getting posterization with the 5.0 DVD player and MMC package that came with the card,and have yet to be able to track down the source of it. The gamma control posterizes severely when utilized to the max, which is obviously indicative of a problem somewhere. Anyone got a solve?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by KBK
I'm getting posterization with the 5.0 DVD player and MMC package that came with the card,and have yet to be able to track down the source of it. The gamma control posterizes severely when utilized to the max, which is obviously indicative of a problem somewhere. Anyone got a solve?
Ken,


No solution, but I can confirm that I have the same problem with my 8500. Look at the grayscale on a scope and see what happens when you increase the gamma.
 

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I've have the same problem with posterization on the 8500. I installed the card yesterday on my HTPC and noticed it on all three players,WinDVD 2.8,ATI 5.0,and the PowerDVD XP. I had Windows ME as my operating system and installed XP today thinking it might help the problem. No difference. I've tried with and without HW acc. No difference. It is very easy to see in scenes with a lot of sky or any large area of color with subtle changes in tones. It almost looks animated. Check out the second chapter in Mission Impossible 2 when Tom Cruise is hanging on the edge of the rock against a big blue sky. I used both the 7199 drivers for ME and the 3281 drivers for XP. If you turn down the gamma in the overlay it's not as noticeable. If anyone can figure what's causing the posterization it would be great because other than that the card displays a very detailed image with a lot of contrast. The posterization is a killer however. I'm almost ready to reinstall the LE again.:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
C:\\>format c:


WARNING, ALL DATA ON NON-REMOVABLE DISK

DRIVE C: WILL BE LOST!

Proceed with Format (Y/N)?


This is what had to be done after a severe problem with corruption somwhere. Government, CIA, and basically in my drivers as well. So, I re-did the HTPC, and still the same problem.


In goes the Radeon LE.... It WORKS.
 

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"In goes the Radeon LE.... It WORKS."


I had to go back to a Radeon 64 DDR. Something is badly wrong with the 8500 overlay. Hope it is just a driver problem.
 

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I went back to the driver that came on the install cd. I think it's version 3271. This does not give the overlay option in the properties box. I used the settings adjustment in the player and left the gamma at the default setting and just bumped up the brightness a little and the picture is good. There still is a little posterization, but as long as the gamma is not increased posterization is minimal. It seems there is either a problem with the new drivers or maybe in the way the 8500 is using them??? Cliff had mentioned a problem with the grayscale. Is this correctable by using a new driver, or is it a problem inherent in the chipset of the 8500? I would like to know if I should return the card or hope for a resolution to the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Due to the fact that the driver and card are used together, it is impossible to any real degree to separate the issue well enough (at out user level) to figure this out. If the gamma works well with games, this might be a clue. I very much suspect the drivers are the problem, at least one desparately hopes this to be true. I am going to keep my card in the meantime, and I await a driver set.


It would be wise to bring the card back if HTPC is the primary useage, and you can't deal with the posterization. In this way, if they fix the problem, you get it at a less than premium "new item!" kind of price (hopefully in the near future). Hopfully this does not take long to recitfy, but one cannot predict with any accuracy when that time will come to pass.
 

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Ouch! I have an 8500 ordered. I think I will cancel it for now. Thanks guys for the heads up.


Mike
 

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I just returned mine, and took the hit for a 15% restocking fee. Looks like I'll be sticking with my Geforce for a while longer.
 

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Hi All:


___Not that many of the regulars over at Rage 3D watch DVD’s like most of us but there is an interesting debate going on in their forums in regards to the 8500’s lower quality overlay display vs. the older Radeon’s as well. You can find the thread here . Give it a quick read to see that others have found some kind of problem as well. You have to wade through a lot of non-sense in regards to the GeForce’s in that thread but they are seeing something different with the newer 8500’s. Cliff, I am hoping that you have a broken board and nothing more. If after you pick up another 8500 and find a similar messed up output, please repost ASAP. There are a lot of owners looking at the 8500 as an all-in-one card for the HT card of choice as well as some gaming but if the display is trashed, ATI is in real big trouble …


___Thanks for any and all replies.


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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"Cliff, I am hoping that you have a broken board and nothing more."


Wayne,


Based on comments in this thread I don't think my 8500 card is any different from others.


Attached is a drawing of the grayscale ramp. The first ramp is derived with all settings at the defaults and #2 ramp shows the effect of increasing the Gamma to the level we normally use with Radeon cards.


Notice that the center part of the ramp is slightly offset from the ramp above ~625 mV and below ~100 mV. When the gamma is increased the center ramp does not move causing really bad banding. I captured a grayscale image from the overlay memory and it was perfect, so the problem is in the scaling/colorspace conversion after the overlay.
 

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Hi all,


I'm not sure what "posterized" means. It seems a kind of graduation problem regarding to Clark's post. If so, did you try latest unofficial drivers?


I had a strange graduation problem while I was using the retail driver. I installed unofficial 6.13.3281 and it fixes all problem related to graduation. I'm completely happy now although ATI player crashes WinXP again and again. ;)


Anyway, thanks KBK. Your comparison especially related to 7500 filter cut is very interesting. Did you try 7200 RADEON or 64 SDR RADEON? For my eyes, 64 SDR had better quality than 64 DDR. So, I was just wondering ATi might changed their filter after 64 SDR... Just a thought.


-- Kazushi
 

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I am cancelling my 8500 order from Dell (for once I am glad my shipment was delayed).

I have a GeForce SDR, Dila & Win Prof. 2K. I'm going to pick up a Radeon LE cheap.
 

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Through my experience with DELL RADEON 8500 (Yes, it's arrived finally :) ),


I also noticed the sound is better now although I'm using the same RME Digi96/8PST and its SPDIF tos link. Yes, I understand this sounds strange. However, I got better sound in 2ch and DTS/DD at least I feel so. My friend said it might be caused by several good electrolytic on 8500 card. My configuration is Cel800, TUV4X w/o Audio, RME Digi96/8, Ether card, and 8500. I have one coolpc fan inside but no CPU fan. I was using RADEON 64 DDR and SDR.


Does anyone notice the differences of sound?


-- Kazushi
 

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Cliff or KBK,

Does this problem with the overlay/colorspace come from a problem in one of the chips on the 8500? In other words is the overlay and colorspace handled in hardware on the radeon cards and can it be changed by a driver update?Is the card hopelessly handicapped for HTPC use and mainly designed for gamers to compete with the Gforce3?


Steve Orr, I hope you can comment on whether ATI is looking into the problem.
 

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â€Does this problem with the overlay/colorspace come from a problem in one of the chips on the 8500?â€


Clark,


I really don’t know what the problem is and can’t imagine ATI releasing the card with a fundamental hardware flaw. Hopefully it is a problem with the software or firmware.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yes. i am keeping the card ans awaiting the newer drivers. I will not sell the card short.
 
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