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Discussion Starter #22
That power across the entire frequency range reading is the best one if you're going to pick one number to evaluate it's overall performance. But, the Dynamic power per channel (which I'm a little surprised they even list) is a little more relevant to this situation as it represents what the amp can reach for, for brief periods of time, when it needs it. How they came up with and how reliable that number is is another question.
How loud you can play something is a delicate balance between the sensitivity and impedance of the speakers and the ability of the amplifier to provide the required current.
87db isn't super-sensitive but it's not too bad and nominal 8 ohm means the current draw shouldn't overall be too intense. But, impedance changes depending on what the speaker is reproducing, going both higher and lower. How low that goes is not information SVS seems to provide. It is definitely not impossible that the speakers are dipping below 4 ohm on occasion, especially if being run full range.
With a theoretical ability to supply 195W into 4 ohms and even more theoretically 240W into 2 ohms for very short periods of time your receiver should be plenty capable of pushing those speakers in most situations, including action movies (because those movies will put the deep/loud stuff in the .1), even if they are set to full. But, playing almost any kind of two-channel music at -5 to -3 is going to be a challenge even if the cross-over is set at 80. Playing bass heavy music into full range speakers at those levels is realistically beyond the capability of the amplifier section of your receiver.
It trying to do so and failing may be causing the rattling in the speakers that you're hearing.
So, it seems we may have found the answer to your initial query, you might just want to be looking at a dedicated power amp. If you decide you want to run those speaks full range an honest 200 wpc is probably what you want, but even if you're crossing at 80 I think you would benefit from more and better power if you want to listen at those levels.
Morgan
Very informative; you are still a bit over my head with some of the exact specifics but I think I get the idea and this is kind of where I was leading up to... can the receiver dynamically allocate power between channels when needed (sounds like the answer is yes) and is a more powerful external amplifier something that might potentially benefit me in the future (sounds like the answer is yes for music).

For now I've left it on the second set of settings (speakers "small" and crossed over at 80hz for the front).
I watched the last couple episodes of Breaking Bad last night and all the gunfire, burnouts, etc hit hard and tight, no issues, sounded (and felt) great. Of course the gunfire was coming through the sub.

Realistically the 0db is about as high as I could ever see listening to music (and far more often below that) so if most of it sounds reasonably good up to that level, I'll probably leave well enough alone. But might keep an eye open for the right deal on a used amp. Just something about that beat on "Inside"; even when crossed over it still goes to the speakers and they don't like it for whatever reason.
Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Sorry, one more question... I sized my speaker wire at 14ga based on a chart the sales guy showed me; it was the "minimum" based on my runs which are in the 30-40ft type range to the front three speakers (I'd have to remeasure to get exact numbers)

But, if switching to 12ga or whatever would be better, I would be willing to do that; is it possible this is a contributing factor to where I might start seeing distortion?
 

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Now you've got me learning things.
Up until yesterday, I had just left all the settings on exactly how YPAO set them, which had every speaker set to "large" and the crossover setting greyed out. Also I had the "extra bass" switch set to "on". The sub was always working when I thought it should both in 5.1 movies and in 2 channel music.

After reading this, I went in there and started messing with it and at one point in time noticed that the sub was not being used while playing music. It would come back on when switching to a 5.1 movie.

I see now what you are saying... with the speakers set to "large" and extra bass "off" it is just playing full range to the speakers and not using the sub. But set them to "small", set a crossover point, and then the sub is used all the time, and I'm assuming the lower frequencies are not being routed to the speakers at all.

So the advantage to the later setup would be that the speakers can then utilize all the delivered power to run the higher frequencies and end up with better performance in that assigned range?

While the music still sounds about the same to me when set up this way, this might give me a tick better volume on "Inside" before the distortion happens, but it is pretty close and could just be my imagination too. The "beat" where it is happening, I would say is relatively high for such a beat and is still going to the speakers.

This exercise definitely caused me to learn something though.
Just for experimentation sake try playing that track with higher crossovers until you can tell it is going to the sub. 90Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, etc. Once you are confident the beats are going to the sub, crank it up again and see if it sounds the same. Sounding the same means it is the Amazon source and nothing you can do. Sounding cleaner and not distorted means something in the chain like not enough power or speakers not able to handle that frequency at that SPL.
 

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Ah... Yeah I took the air vents (they are in the ceiling) down to paint them black along with the ceiling, so they have recently been screwed back in pretty tight. Will keep an eye on that but I think they are good for now. Not sure I'm in the power ballpark here to where that will be a problem. :)

"Everloving" was a song I found recommended on Youtube as test source material, so playing that one is how I found the other. No issues with Everloving as far as I can tell up to zero db or slightly above, where it becomes uncomfortable for me. The high piano notes or whatever they are in the background start to get a little lost at those high volumes, I would say. But I don't notice what I would call distortion, like I do on the next song. Track 17, also no issues similar to Everloving. I'll havve to go back and play #3 soon.

The receiver says the sound source is "PCM 48khz". I don't know exactly what that means, but I know it is not the best and should get better if I ponied up for the highest Amazon Music package.
Keep an ear out on those vents. Get enough vibration through the drywall to the metal frame causing the vent blades to ring. I had to use rubber mat that I cut a donut shaped rectangle to reduce my vibration.
 

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Sorry, one more question... I sized my speaker wire at 14ga based on a chart the sales guy showed me; it was the "minimum" based on my runs which are in the 30-40ft type range to the front three speakers (I'd have to remeasure to get exact numbers)

But, if switching to 12ga or whatever would be better, I would be willing to do that; is it possible this is a contributing factor to where I might start seeing distortion?

Unless you move your speakers further away by 10-15 feet, going to a larger gauge will provide absolutely no benefit. The distortion occures because you're pushing the limits of your speakers/AVR. Your Main speakers are pretty efficient and can handle more volume than your satellite speakers or center which shouldn't be on for music anyway. A more powerful amp may help since you seem to enjoy cranking them up to 11, but keep in mind that you can only add an amp to your front channels with your current AVR. You'd need to step up to an RX-A880 or higher, Marantz 5000 series or higher or Denon X3000 series or higher for a multi-channel amp. Turn down the volume a little and you be alright.
 
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Discussion Starter #27
Sounds good.... thanks again!
Cranking to 11 will be a rarity... right now I'm just trying to understand where the limits are, why they are there, and what would be needed to extend them if desired. Turning it down a notch is definitely the preferred solution for now.

I think even if I ever did want an external amp, just the front R+L would be all I would want to put it on anyway so that should be fine.
I'll try playing the offending song while raising the crossover and see what happens.
 

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Sounds good.... thanks again!
Cranking to 11 will be a rarity... right now I'm just trying to understand where the limits are, why they are there, and what would be needed to extend them if desired. Turning it down a notch is definitely the preferred solution for now.

I think even if I ever did want an external amp, just the front R+L would be all I would want to put it on anyway so that should be fine.
I'll try playing the offending song while raising the crossover and see what happens.

When testing speakers/settings etc....using music you've heard and know every note to is probably best. If something sounds off, you'll know right away and can make adjustments where needed.


This forum is a good source of information on the fundamentals and has been a big help to me and many others. There is a lot of trial and error involved as many have discovered so have fun and experiment a little with (within reason) your settings. Don't be afraid or embarrassed to ask questions. We all started where you are.
 

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Very informative; you are still a bit over my head with some of the exact specifics but I think I get the idea and this is kind of where I was leading up to... can the receiver dynamically allocate power between channels when needed (sounds like the answer is yes) and is a more powerful external amplifier something that might potentially benefit me in the future (sounds like the answer is yes for music).

For now I've left it on the second set of settings (speakers "small" and crossed over at 80hz for the front).
I watched the last couple episodes of Breaking Bad last night and all the gunfire, burnouts, etc hit hard and tight, no issues, sounded (and felt) great. Of course the gunfire was coming through the sub.

Realistically the 0db is about as high as I could ever see listening to music (and far more often below that) so if most of it sounds reasonably good up to that level, I'll probably leave well enough alone. But might keep an eye open for the right deal on a used amp. Just something about that beat on "Inside"; even when crossed over it still goes to the speakers and they don't like it for whatever reason.
Thanks again.
It is true that the receiver will allocate power as you suggest, however that is not what Dynamic Power is. It is the ability of any amp, including a mono one, to provide brief moments of substantial current draw when require, like when the Death Star blows up, or something like that. As you might imagine, it's fairly important quality of a good sub-woofer amp. But, it's also important in music, especially at higher volumes and especially powering full range speakers. It's perhaps most easily imagined in a Symphony where the orchestra is playing along fairly quietly and then suddenly surges to a loud dynamic peak. The draw can go from well under what an amp is rated for to much more fairly quickly. But this can happen with any kind of music, as well.
Definitely worth doing some research if you ever decide to get an outboard amp, especially if you're looking for a good deal. I haven't yet dabbled in them myself but I've gotten the impression that there are a fair amount of inexpensive PA amps that provide a lot of power and are well built for their task but wouldn't measure as well as your receiver.
Morgan
 
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