[RobbieSimm]

Unless somebody can get on TrainerDave, P50 owners are in for a big, BAD, Surprise.


It is IMPOSSIBLE, once again, to enter via DVI into the Fuji natively at 1365 x 768 and get a pixel for pixel image. It's even worse than that. The Fuji will accept the rate and will sync up with it, but there will be a black border on both sides or possibly on all 4 sides, of about 1/2 inch of NOTHING, no signal at all.


This is terrible because it not only doesn't give you true dot for dot pixel mapping, it will eventually cause irrepairable burn in that will be very visible in very little time. So if you ever sell the unit or view anything other than DVI scaled material, you will see discoloration on the outer 1/2 inch of the set. This applies to HD content as well as SD content, or in other words, EVERYTHING that is viewed through DVI.


The issue is the software in the Fuji. It senses that 1365 x 768 is a PC signal and not a video signal. This is a problem that occured on the very first generation of Pioneer plasmas, but has since been corrected in all later versions.


There is only one solution to this issue, it will not come in the form of some DVI Blaster or gimmick to fool the panel. We all must get together as P50 owners and convince Fujitsu, or perhaps we can start with TrainerDave, that not all native DVI signals should be received as PC signals. If Fuji offers a simple firmware fix for those of us that complain, we can install it via a PC thru the communications port on the bottom of the panel. It is a VERY simple fix for them. They do not need to change anything in Japan, they can continue to ship it with the same firmware to the rest of the world. But, for those of us that need to send VIDEO via DVI natively, they should offer us a solution to correct the problem.


Let the rants begin.

 

[Ken Ross]

No rants necessary since what you say is inaccurate, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Many of us have our satellite receivers hooked up via DVI and are getting the entire picture with no borders whatsoever. Additionally there is a size adjustment so that you can slightly enlarge or decrease the size of the picture if you have any issues. IF what you are talking about is hooking the P50 up to a computer for HTPC, then what you are saying is nothing new and has been known for some time. People are getting such excellent results with new progressive scan DVD players, that even the HTPC issue (IMO) is no biggie.


Bottom line is that DVI hooked up to DVI equipped satellite receivers IS video capable and no burn-in issue exists.

 

[PooperScooper]

Reading the post I was thinking the same as Ken. The new Bravo

D1, which I believe makes HTPC-DVD unnecessary now, sends a

720P signal (1280x720?) via DVI and the screen is filled just fine.

I can live without the extra 86x48.


larry

 

[mleelun]

I have seen that when hookip up a PC thru the DVI port that you do indeed get inactive pixels on either side of the screen. I usually set it to 1280x720 for most things and only switch to 1366x768 for dvd.


Mike

 

[mr_wires]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Ross No rants necessary since what you say is inaccurate, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Many of us have our satellite receivers hooked up via DVI and are getting the entire picture with no borders whatsoever. Additionally there is a size adjustment so that you can slightly enlarge or decrease the size of the picture if you have any issues. IF what you are talking about is hooking the P50 up to a computer for HTPC, then what you are saying is nothing new and has been known for some time. People are getting such excellent results with new progressive scan DVD players, that even the HTPC issue (IMO) is no biggie. Bottom line is that DVI hooked up to DVI equipped satellite receivers IS video capable and no burn-in issue exists.

Actually, it's a big deal for a lot of us watching HTPC network based video content(eg. Fastether, IEEE1394, USB media streaming). It's one of the big reasons I didn't purchase the panel. IMO the original statement is accurate and reflects the view of current owners and potential owners who do utilize HTPC's.


I guess some use the HTPC for more than just DVD playback, they connect backend networks that they're able to get video on demand, such as HDTV recordings, backed up DVD/VHS's, and Family film content just to name a view. I see it at the best way to converge my content and the easiest way to manage my content. For those that do take this approach the P50 probably isn't the right panel.

 

[jacksonian]

Then change the title of the thread to "Real Bad News for HTPC users with Fujitsu P50s". BTW, anyone who's invested enough in their hobby to be using HTPC should be invested enough to check this out before they drop $8K.

 

[RobbieSimm]

Maybe you guys don't understand my post or maybe I wasn't clear.


First, a short lesson in scaling is in order.


If you send the Fujitsu ANY resolution through ANY input OTHER than its native scale rate of 1365 x 768, then you are defeating the purpose of using an external scaler because the INTERNAL scaler of the panel will be doing upconversion or downcoversion of the signal to get it to 1365 x 768.


That said, of course you can send the panel 720 DVI or 1080 DVI or 480 DVI and the picture will sync up with the panel BUT, that is because you will be using the panels internal scaler to convert it to 1365 x 768. If you send it it's native rate of 1365 x 768 through DVI you will COMPLETELY eliminate using the internal scaler HOWEVER you will not be able to get a full screen image without a border of inactive pixels. You will not get a pixel perfect image. You WILL get burn in. You will NOT be using all of the pixels available to you so you are losing inches of viewing area.


THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM! If it doesn't affect you then be thankful but, this is the only panel that behaves this way. I have PM'ed TrainerDave and it seems he didn't understand the problem, maybe I didn't expalin it properly in the first post.


I am waiting for a response from TD to hear what he has to say.


PS JACKSONIAN: There is no reason for any owner of the P50 to buy an external scaler or an HTPC because it will be incapable of improving your picture quality, you will still be forced into using the internal AVM scaler.

 

[Ken Ross]

Quote:

Originally posted by mr_wires IMO the original statement is accurate and reflects the view of current owners and potential owners who do utilize HTPC's.

If the thread was entitled "Read Bad News for HTPC users with Fujitsu P50s" as Jacksonian suggested, THEN it would have been accurate. However, as the original statement reads, it gives the impression that any DVI connection will cause burn-in with the side bars. As far as HTPC users are concerned, I think this issue has been so widely & frequently discussed with not only the Fujitsu plasmas, but other manufacturers too, it should come as no surprise for anyone that's done their homework. If HTPC is a major issue for a prospective buyer, then the buyer might wish to look at a different display technology.

 

[RobbieSimm]

KEN: It applies to all aftermarket scalers such as Faroudja, Key Digital, Asimilator, Teranex, Vigatech, Inline, Extron etc... AS WELL AS the millions of HTPC users in the world.


This is not just directed to HTPC users but, MOST of the highest end home theaters use some sort of scaler to improve the PQ. Not having the ability to do so is a serious flaw in the product.

 

[Ken Ross]

Quote:

Originally posted by RobbieSimm If you send it it's native rate of 1365 x 768 through DVI you will COMPLETELY eliminate using the internal scaler HOWEVER you will not be able to get a full screen image without a border of inactive pixels. You will not get a pixel perfect image. You WILL get burn in. You will NOT be using all of the pixels available to you so you are losing inches of viewing area. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM! If it doesn't affect you then be thankful but, this is the only panel that behaves this way.

What you are saying is nothing new. It has been known since day one (do a search). However, it is my impression that many other plasmas behave the same way, I don't think this is unique to the Fujitsu. Obviously the vast majority of Fujitsu buyers don't believe it is a "big problem" to them since either they don't use HTPC or it isn't the most important part of their purchasing equation.

 

[dswallow]

If someone is going to use an HTPC at 1365x768 and ends up always seeing the 3 pixels of black on the sides, then they'll never be seeing anything in those 3 pixels of black ever, thus the issue of burn-in is somewhat moot until you view something using a different connection, which seems to be what HTPC users want to avoid by using the HTPC.


I suppose there would be a feeling of getting gypped out of six rows of pixels.

 

[DFletcher]

I bought the Bravo D1 out of curiousity, but I can't get it to work properly with my PDS-5001 (last year's Fujitsu model). I can't set the player to output anything but 480p. What should I check first? Do I have the wrong DVI cable? Right from the beginning, the menus look squished and offcenter. Something is wrong, somewhere, but I don't know where to begin.

 

[Ken Ross]

Quote:

Originally posted by RobbieSimm This is not just directed to HTPC users but, MOST of the highest end home theaters use some sort of scaler to improve the PQ. Not having the ability to do so is a serious flaw in the product.

Robbie, many Fujitsu purchasers buy a Fujitsu for the AVM scaler which is regarded as the best in the plasma industry. Most owners don't feel a need for a scaler since the built-in scaler appears to do as good a job as many external scalers obviating the need for purchasing a scaler. That is one of the beauties of this panel. The overall PQ of the unit is probably the overriding issue for the majority of purchasers. Even if I was big into HTPC, I question if I would have ever gone the route of another plasma that did have the ability to do pixel by pixel since I would have had to deal with other issues that an external scaler could never have solved (black levels etc.) However, I would say I'd be pretty safe in saying the Fujitsu is definitely not for you.

 

[PooperScooper]

mr_wires I agree that HTPC is more than watching DVDs. That's why

I now use HTPC-DVD when talking about viewing DVDs compared to

the D1. Is 1280x720 an intolerable resolution compared to 1366x768

on the P50 or another display? Or is it just the fact that you know

it should be able to to 1366x768, but won't. And I can appreciate that

too, I'm not being snide.


larry

 

[RobbieSimm]

KEN: One more time, THIS APPLIES TO ALL AFTERMARKET SCALERS NOT JUST HTPC'S! There isn't an internal plasma scaler worth a damn, so to say it is the best internal scaler of all plasmas means nothing. It is still FAR worse than even the cheapest aftermarket scalers available and light years behind the scaling of a $3000 Faroudja scaler. Compare it to any of the new generation of scalers with adjustable refresh rates and the latest algorithyms and you will see how very bad the internal scaler really is, but it is still the best internal scaler no question.


DSWALLOW: What are you talking about with 3 pixel columns? It is more like 10 colums of pixels on both sides of the image, that is over 1 inch of viewing area eliminated from your plasma. More importantly, you are not getting the full resolution from your scaler because the panel won't accept it. The burn in is just a secondary issue that renders using an external scaler via DVI useless, as well as all HTPC's.

 

[pciav]

I own the Pioneer 503 and not the Fuji, but have been following along here for my own education. I ran across this post from Michael @ Key Digital regarding both the Fuji and the Pioneer at Native Rate. The Post is in response to Mark Rubin's question related to this matter. Hope this helps.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...56#post2088456

 

[Ken Ross]

Robbie, so I guess I was accurate in saying this plasma is not for you? My inputs are D-Theater, DVD and Sony HD200 via DVI/HDCP. I'm very happy with the PQ on all of them, so for me this is obviously not an issue. As I said before, if one were to get an external scaler and a plasma that could accept native rate, you'll never achieve some of the benefits of the Fujitsu such as black levels. That would forever bother me. As far as the Fujitsu scaler "not being worth a damn", we can agree to disagree. I'm not sold on the whole external scaler issue. For those that this is a major issue, look elsewhere. Each to his own.

 

[mleelun]

Honestly I can't really tell much of a difference. I run at 1280x720 pretty much all the time and fill up the entire screen.


Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by PooperScooper mr_wires I agree that HTPC is more than watching DVDs. That's why I now use HTPC-DVD when talking about viewing DVDs compared to the D1. Is 1280x720 an intolerable resolution compared to 1366x768 on the P50 or another display? Or is it just the fact that you know it should be able to to 1366x768, but won't. And I can appreciate that too, I'm not being snide. larry

 

[mleelun]

I don't mean to answer for DSWALLOW, but he's right. I only lose 3 pixels on each side when I display 1366 x 768. I hope a solution is found soon.


Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by RobbieSimm KEN: One more time, THIS APPLIES TO ALL AFTERMARKET SCALERS NOT JUST HTPC'S! There isn't an internal plasma scaler worth a damn, so to say it is the best internal scaler of all plasmas means nothing. It is still FAR worse than even the cheapest aftermarket scalers available and light years behind the scaling of a $3000 Faroudja scaler. Compare it to any of the new generation of scalers with adjustable refresh rates and the latest algorithyms and you will see how very bad the internal scaler really is, but it is still the best internal scaler no question. DSWALLOW: What are you talking about with 3 pixel columns? It is more like 10 colums of pixels on both sides of the image, that is over 1 inch of viewing area eliminated from your plasma. More importantly, you are not getting the full resolution from your scaler because the panel won't accept it. The burn in is just a secondary issue that renders using an external scaler via DVI useless, as well as all HTPC's.

 

[dandrewk]

I can sum up the debate here, and the entire point of the original poster:


Much ado about nothing.


Let me rephrase that:


MUCH ado about NOTHING.


First of all, I use my Fuji as an HTPC. I use it as a computer monitor, DVD player and HDTV viewer. I have EVERYTHING at 1366x768. I am not sure what you mean by "black lines", I don't see any, EVER. And further, I DON'T CARE.


Let's do a test, shall we? You take any technologically marvelous plasma that CAN, supposedly, do pixel-to-pixel mapping without having to use those god-awful (sarcasm) internal scalers. Hook up one of those outrageously overpriced external scalers (which, btw, are designed for projector usage) and pop in your favorite DVD. Now, let's compare it to my technologically backward P50, using HTPC - Zoom Player, Sonic filters, ffdshow with chroma sharpening, ATI Radeon and VMR9 overlay, using nothing more than the video card's setup to output at 1366x768.


I will bet you my Fuji that you won't beat my PQ. In fact, I know you won't.


This is NOT to slam outboard scalers. If I had a FP player, I would certainly look into that investment. But I don't. I have a plasma.


I think the title of this thread should read: REAL bad news for Fujitsu P50 owners who, for some unknown reason, want to use their plasma with an outboard scaler.

Quote:

It is still FAR worse than even the cheapest aftermarket scalers available and light years behind the scaling of a $3000 Faroudja scaler. Compare it to any of the new generation of scalers with adjustable refresh rates and the latest algorithyms (SIC) and you will see how very bad the internal scaler really is, but it is still the best internal scaler no question.

You say "let the rants begin". Well, guess what, the above statement exposes you as a plasma-o-phobe, like many of the trolls who come in this forum and post little barbs and then disappear.


Let me guess, you maybe have one of those RPTV's that paid $5000 for a couple of years ago and now you are ANGRY?


To say the internal scalers of any plasma is junk is nothing but troll bait. You need to do some serious media readings before you make such a statement. Or better yet, check out the reviews and the experiences of real-world users.