[panfist]

I'm looking at purchasing my first receiver for a home theater system. My goal is to purchase a receiver that is not too expensive (no more than $200) and is also highly efficient. It's my noob understanding that class D amplifiers are much more efficient than class A/B amplifiers.


I'm finding it difficult to limit my search to only receivers with class D amplifiers. Is it even worth doing? Are there any available in my price range?

 

[ccotenj]

i don't think you are going to find much, let alone something with d class amplification, for less than $200...


i wouldn't worry too much about efficiency... scour your local craigslists and yard sales and look for something used...


good luck...

 

[TPnBobcats]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16863662


I'm looking at purchasing my first receiver for a home theater system. My goal is to purchase a receiver that is not too expensive (no more than $200) and is also highly efficient. It's my noob understanding that class D amplifiers are much more efficient than class A/B amplifiers.


I'm finding it difficult to limit my search to only receivers with class D amplifiers. Is it even worth doing? Are there any available in my price range?

There is nothing new that will have class D amps in that price range and pretty much nothing new period. For $200 you are talking either junk or refurbed models. Even then your selection will be limited.


IIRC the higher end Pioneer Elites and the recent Rotel AVRs have IcePower amps which are a variant of class D, but even used, none of those are even going to be with in spitting distance of $200.


I wouldn't worry about the efficiency frankly. With what a low cost AVR has for amps, they aren't going to be strong enough to suck up a lot of power.

 

[Knucklehead90]

For that $200 you might want to consider the HK AVR 247 . They are currently going for under $200. Or for just over $200 the 254 .

Neither are a class D receiver but they won't cost you an arm n leg to operate.


Why the 'efficiency' need?

 

[MichaelJHuman]

I would not call ICE a variant of class D. I would say ICE is class D. Am I wrong?

 

[ekiander]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16864448


I would not call ICE a variant of class D. I would say ICE is class D. Am I wrong?

It's class D but starts at around $1500.

 

[TPnBobcats]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16864448


I would not call ICE a variant of class D. I would say ICE is class D. Am I wrong?

I was under the impression there were some technical differences, but I could easily be mistaken.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/16864409


Why the 'efficiency' need?

Why not? It's cheaper to operate nearly 16 hours a day, it generates less heat so it lowers my air conditioning costs, it's better for the environment, and the nerd in me likes to use cool new technologies that maximize efficiency. That part of me wins out over the audiophile part, not to mention that I probably wouldn't be able to afford speakers which would actually demonstrate an audible difference between A/B and D.


Considering that Class D receivers are so expensive, could I get a receiver without amplification and add my own class D amp(s)? Class D amps seem quite cheap.


I care about sound quality, but I care about value more at this point in my life, and sound quality and price definitely don't scale well.

 

[TPnBobcats]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16868814


Why not? It's cheaper to operate nearly 16 hours a day, it generates less heat so it lowers my air conditioning costs, it's better for the environment, and the nerd in me likes to use cool new technologies that maximize efficiency. That part of me wins out over the audiophile part, not to mention that I probably wouldn't be able to afford speakers which would actually demonstrate an audible difference between A/B and D.


Considering that Class D receivers are so expensive, could I get a receiver without amplification and add my own class D amp(s)? Class D amps seem quite cheap.


I care about sound quality, but I care about value more at this point in my life, and sound quality and price definitely don't scale well.

Unless you are talking about a very low power external amp (25-50 wpc or something like that), all of the class D amps I'm familiar with are pretty expensive. High hundreds of dollars or considerably more.


Also just because you aren't using the amps in an AVR, does not mean that they don't draw power and generate heat. They do.


For those goals, you would need a pre-pro (again $$$) and a separate class D amp or one of the few class D amp AVRs.

 

[Bruins29]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16868814


Why not? It's cheaper to operate nearly 16 hours a day, it generates less heat so it lowers my air conditioning costs, it's better for the environment,

Have you actually figured out how much cheaper, how much less heat (how much it will actually save you in the end on AC), and how much "better for the environment?"


You kinda sound like one of those people who go out and drop $25K on a Hybrid car just because it gets better gas milage. They end up spending an extra $7K for the hybrid car vs a non hybrid and probably never drive enough or keep the car long enough to recoup the initial investment of the hybrid in the first place.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by TPnBobcats /forum/post/16868853


Unless you are talking about a very low power external amp (25-50 wpc or something like that), all of the class D amps I'm familiar with are pretty expensive. High hundreds of dollars or considerably more.


Also just because you aren't using the amps in an AVR, does not mean that they don't draw power and generate heat. They do.


For those goals, you would need a pre-pro (again $$$) and a separate class D amp or one of the few class D amp AVRs.

I guess I just feel let-down that the industry hasn't embraced class D technology, except in a few small niches. I'm more of a computer guy than an A/V guy; in the world of computers, new technology is adopted, improved, and then cast aside for the next new thing at an obscene pace. I would say that man audiophiles, from poor to rich, could be described as technophobes. Well, I'm a technophile more than I'm an audiophile.


P.S. I'm not looking to get a really high-powered setup. I would be happy with 50 wpc.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 /forum/post/16868861


Have you actually figured out how much cheaper, how much less heat (how much it will actually save you in the end on AC), and how much "better for the environment?"


You kinda sound like one of those people who go out and drop $25K on a Hybrid car just because it gets better gas milage. They end up spending an extra $7K for the hybrid car vs a non hybrid and probably never drive enough or keep the car long enough to recoup the initial investment of the hybrid in the first place.

And you kinda sound like an ass who would judge me based on one single dependent clause in my entire post. I don't drive a hybrid, not that that has any relevance to the topic at hand.


No, I haven't run any numbers that prove exactly how much less heat a class D amp will generate than a class A/B, but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Class A/B amps are like 90% transformer+heatsink, 10% actual bits and pieces by weight (yes I made those numbers up). Class D amps don't have heat sinks that dwarf the other components.


I came here seeking information. If I find that I won't be able to recoup the costs of purchasing a high-efficiency amplifier even running it full-blast for 24 hours a day for the next six decades, I won't buy one. If I find that there does happen to be one in my price range but it sounds like moist ass, I won't buy one.

 

[Easyaspie]

What does moist a** sound like?


If Chu catches wind of this, no pun intended, I'm sure he'll have something to say about it.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie /forum/post/16869521


What does moist a** sound like?


If Chu catches wind of this, no pun intended, I'm sure he'll have something to say about it.

I could post a clip, but sometimes things like this are better left to the imagination, like Alfred Hitchcock style suspense.


edit: damn...I just described my simile with a simile.

 

[TPnBobcats]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 /forum/post/16868861


Have you actually figured out how much cheaper, how much less heat (how much it will actually save you in the end on AC), and how much "better for the environment?"


You kinda sound like one of those people who go out and drop $25K on a Hybrid car just because it gets better gas milage. They end up spending an extra $7K for the hybrid car vs a non hybrid and probably never drive enough or keep the car long enough to recoup the initial investment of the hybrid in the first place.

This was kind of obnoxious Bruins. Some people will pick something simply because it is less wasteful and there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16868887


I guess I just feel let-down that the industry hasn't embraced class D technology, except in a few small niches. I'm more of a computer guy than an A/V guy; in the world of computers, new technology is adopted, improved, and then cast aside for the next new thing at an obscene pace. I would say that man audiophiles, from poor to rich, could be described as technophobes. Well, I'm a technophile more than I'm an audiophile.

Well I suspect that eventually things will go primarily class D. Simply because the digital end of things advances so rapidly and it will integrate with all the other digital hardware better, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16868887


P.S. I'm not looking to get a really high-powered setup. I would be happy with 50 wpc.

Well I'm afraid I don't actually know of any class D amps like that. I have vague memories of someone mentioning a low power amp in that power range at some point, that I think was class D. So I though you might be referring to that product (if it even exists).

 

[Bruins29]

I was not trying to be obnoxious or even insulting. I just thought he was going down a path that would result in him wasting more effort and money on something that not only I thought not worth it but something that was not measured or even measureable.


I used the hybrid as an example. I never said he drove a hybrid.

 

[Easyaspie]



Quote:
Originally Posted by TPnBobcats /forum/post/16869643


Well I suspect that eventually things will go primarily class D. Simply because the digital end of things advances so rapidly and it will integrate with all the other digital hardware better, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

Why would a switching amplifier integrate better with digital hardware.


Don't confuse class D with digital.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 /forum/post/16869676


I was not trying to be obnoxious or even insulting. I just thought he was going down a path that would result in him wasting more effort and money on something that not only I thought not worth it but something that was not measured or even measureable.


I used the hybrid as an example. I never said he drove a hybrid.

Well, if that's the case, then I appreciate your input. I certainly do not want to go down a path like that. One thing that I would like to do is vote with my dollars for more efficient technology. I'm not really expecting the higher efficiency technology to really be the cheapest, even in the long run, but if the cost is close I will opt for high-efficiency.


Another example similar to hybrid cars is LCD monitors. Many people assume that because they consume less energy than CRTs that they are more environmentally friendly, but manufacturing LCD panels releases some kind of nitrogen-flourine gas that's a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2 because it's half-life in the upper atmosphere is tens of thousands of times greater.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/07...-gas-worries/1


It's very hard to tell someone's tone over the internet. I apologize for snapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie /forum/post/16869731


Why would a switching amplifier integrate better with digital hardware.

This has nothing to do with integration of separate systems--because I think that the amplification system can be easily and distinctly separated from everything else--but I do think that it can help improve the form factor of receivers. I don't know that much about A/B or D amp construction, but from my basic understanding, the components of D amps can leverage steady miniaturization due to Moore's Law.


edit: now I'm starting to second-guess what I said in response to Easyaspie...I'm probably wrong.

 

[Dzhokhar]

I think JVC and/or Panasonic had/have cheapish AVRs with Class-D amplification. I'm not sure you'd get many people to recommend them, but you might be able to find a used one for ~$200...


(maybe)

 

[MichaelJHuman]

There were definitely some class D Panasonic receivers. I think that was around three years ago. Owners seemed quite pleased with them, but Panny must not have made enough on them. Panny did put out another class D receiver in the last year, I think. I am not sure if it was sold in the US.