AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
494 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@Dom Di Stroia - Hi, it would be a problem getting them in EU :)
@KidHorn - That's what i'am thinking about, 2 towers for music pleasure w/o sub..

What i have now is Pioneer VSX-923K > Yamaha 2 x NS-555 + NS-C444 + 2 x NS-333 + NS-SW300 But i feel that neither VSX neither NS-555 is very good in music.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
Where in Europe are you? I can make some general reference to the UK, if that helps. Pretty much anything available in the UK is available in the EU.

This forum might be of more help as it is the largest AV forum in the UK -

AV Forums - UK -

https://www.avforums.com/forums/

Your budget is £360 to about £1450/pr.

Can you tell us the size of your room? Big room = Big Speakers, not so big room = not so big speakers.

Am I right, this will be part of a Surround Sound system?

I would start with Dali Ikon 6, a highly rated speaker, for a modest £999/pr -

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/dali-ikon-6-mkii-speakers-pair

Getting into a pretty big speaker, and pushing your budget right to the limit, would be the Dali Ikon 7 at £1460/pr -

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/dali-ikon-7-mkii-speakers-pair

The Monitor Audio SIlver 6 (£1000/pr) and Silver 8 (£1250/pr) are certainly worth considering -

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-14031-monitor-audio-silver-6-speakers-pair.aspx

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-14032-monitor-audio-silver-8-speakers-pair.aspx

The largest selling brand of speakers in the EU, or so I have been told, is CANTON from Germany. Well worth checking into.

http://www.canton.de/en/hifi/

I'm using Kent Home Cinema as an example, but you should be able to find better prices in the EU.

Canton Chrono 509.2 DC Floorstanding speaker (£1399/pr) -


http://www.kenthomecinema-online.co.uk/Speakers/Floor-Standing-Speakers/Canton-Chrono-509.2-DC

The new B&W 683-S2 (£1150/pr) sound pretty good, a bit soft in the bass, but the -6db rating is 30hz.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-14576-bw-683-s2-floorstanding-speakers-pair.aspx

On the lower end, the Wharfedale Speakers are very high value, I have the older Diamond 9.6 floorstanding speakers, though I got them for a steal.

Wharfedale Diamond 240 (2x6.5"/165mm), £699/pr -

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-16005-wharfedale-diamond-240-floor-standing-speakers-pair.aspx

Wharfedale Diamond 250 (2x8"/200mm), £999/pr -

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-16006-wharfedale-diamond-250-floor-standing-speakers-pair.aspx

This may be unique to the UK, but the once £1000/pr Tannoy DC6T-SE are now in the £500/pr to £600/pr price range, and are very impressive speakers for that modest amount of money.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-11251-tannoy-revolution-dc6tse-floorstanding-speakers-pair.aspx

Also, very popular since its introduction, the Dali Zensor 7 at £730/pr are certainly worth considering.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-9439-dali-zensor-7-speakers-pair.aspx

As to bass specs, while it is certainly ideal to get 30hz at -3db, those speakers are few and far between. Most better speakers concentrated on clarity and smooth balanced bass rather than deeper or more intense bass.

To get from the -3db spec to the best guess -6db spec, you can subtract about 5hz to 8hz, and you will have a fair guess.

So the Dali Ikon 6 are rated at 37hz at -3db, that means the -6db is going to be in the 29hz to 32hz range. That's pretty decent. Those speakers should do well for both music and movies.

The Wharfedale Diamond 240, according the the Wharfedale Website, are rated at 40hz at -3db and about 35hz at -6db. Establishing that my best guess 5hz to 8hz is a pretty close guess.

http://wharfedale.co.uk/product.php?pid=78

Just for reference, the Diamond 250 with twin 8"/200mm bass drivers each, are rated 35hz at -3db and 32hz at -6db.

http://wharfedale.co.uk/product.php?pid=79

The spec for -6db is still very usable sound. One could consider the -3db virtually flat, and the -6db down just a trace. Again, -6db is still very usable sound.

Lastly, don't confuse Perceived bass with Rated bass. Deeper bass does not mean louder bass, and louder bass does not mean deeper bass.

There are many speakers that have modest bass rating, yet the bass response is bumped up to make it seem louder, which people assume means deeper. Equally there are speakers with very balanced bass that go exceptionally deep. Don't confuse the two, Deeper Does Not Mean Louder.

My system is something of the perfect example of this. I have 12" 3-way DIY box speakers, that are rated at about 40hz. My other speakers are rated at 28hz at -6db with twin 8"/200mm bass drivers each. For movies, I kick in the 12" speakers, and even though the bass isn't as deep, they add tremendous impact to movie sound tracks. But the impact comes not from deeper bass but from moving substantially more air. There is more impact from being hit with a wall of air as opposed to a puff of air. With both speakers on, I've felt my hair ruffle and my clothing move from bass impact.

While Subwoofers do go deep, the real advantage is that they are very large and move tons of air creating very substantial physical impact.

So, while you definitely want response close to 30hz, don't get too hung up on a few Hertz one way or the other.

Hopefully that has been of some help.

Steve/bluewizard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
494 Posts
@Dom Di Stroia - Hi, it would be a problem getting them in EU :)
@KidHorn - That's what i'am thinking about, 2 towers for music pleasure w/o sub..

What i have now is Pioneer VSX-923K > Yamaha 2 x NS-555 + NS-C444 + 2 x NS-333 + NS-SW300 But i feel that neither VSX neither NS-555 is very good in music.
Well then, that's going to cost you:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Klipsch-RF-62-Standing-Speaker-Black/dp/B00415E7FE/

http://www.klipsch.com/rf-62-ii-floorstanding-speaker/details

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,125 Posts
I used to think (couple of decades ago) that music didn't need a sub. I was WAY wrong. I have made numerous posts about it so won't bore people here again, but IME/IMO you'll be far better off using a sub in a system no matter if for music, HT, or both. The distortion goes way up for almost all speakers (big towers included) somewhere below 100 Hz, you expend way more power and lose way more headroom than needful, and miss a lot of the percussives and subharmonics that you'll notice when you get them back (drum hits, plucked strings, piano hammers, etc.) You also lose the ability to place subs where they provide the best room response, which unfortunately rarely seems to be where the mains are for best imaging and such.

IMO - Don

p.s. And yes there are a myriad of speakers in your price range rated to the 35 Hz'ish range... How well they do down there is another matter...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
The problem with a Sub in a Stereo system, is that there is no way to control the bass to the Front Speakers. Consequently you can not select a crossover of 80hz as you would with an AV Receiver. You have to select a frequency the blends the Sub with the low end cut off of the speakers. That means, depending on the speakers, a crossover around 30hz to 40hz, given the Sub a somewhat limited 10hz to 20hz range.

It is true, that in an AV system, when you divert bass from the Front to the Sub, the Front clean up very nicely and still provide nice impact above the crossover frequency. But you simply don't have the option in a Stereo system, unless perhaps you have $2000 cash for a Pre-Amp/Power Amp such as the Parasound P5 pre-amp and the A23 power amp.

As to how well a Sub works in a Stereo, that depends on what you are trying to get out of it. If you are a total Bass Head, you can certainly get some kick-ass bass. But it become more difficult if you are trying to get a more balanced and refined sound. It can still be done, but it becomes more difficult. You have to specifically seek out Subs that are very smooth, flat, and controlled. I think most often that means a Sealed Sub.

Myself, and this is just my preference, give how expensive good Subs are, I would rather divert that money into better quality Front speakers, though too each his own.

Also remember that the OP does have a Sub - Yamaha NS-SW300 ($549) -

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/subwoofers/ns-sw300_w/

And he also has a AV Receiver, so for movies he is set. However, for music, I think either most or a significant number of people play music with Front only. Though again, we are getting down to preferences.

His current speakers are floorstanding (Yamaha NS-555) with -6db response of 30hz, I think he is looking for something similar to replace them with. NS-555 = 2x6.5" bass, 4" Mid, 1" Tweeter.

The Budget in US Dollar is about US$540/pr up to US$2200/pr. But remember the available choices and prices are different in Europe.

Steve/bluewizard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,125 Posts
That's a good question for the OP: is it a stereo only system? An AVR in stereo mode (vs. some sort of "direct" mode) generally does properly handle bass management.

In any event, servo control or a well-designed sub should do OK in stereo but you may have to pick up (or build) a crossover. I have a pair of Rythmik F12's in my system and I use (and have for decades) an active crossover which, with phase control (a continuous knob, not just a switch), allows me to get everything nice and flat in time and frequency (some tweaking done for that, using an Earthworks M30 and R+D software for measurements). I have had a sub in my system long before the HT days and stand by my comments that for me it makes a big difference for all types of music.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,866 Posts
There is a way to get bass management in a hifi, you use a high pass function. Either one inside the sub, or another unit. Currently I'm using a Outlaw ICBM-1 inbetween pre and power. Speakers are towers that reach down to 35hz, or 45hz depending on which tower speaker I use,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Myself, and this is just my preference, give how expensive good Subs are, I would rather divert that money into better quality Front speakers, though too each his own.

Also remember that the OP does have a Sub - Yamaha NS-SW300 ($549) -

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/subwoofers/ns-sw300_w/

And he also has a AV Receiver, so for movies he is set. However, for music, I think either most or a significant number of people play music with Front only. Though again, we are getting down to preferences.

His current speakers are floorstanding (Yamaha NS-555) with -6db response of 30hz, I think he is looking for something similar to replace them with. NS-555 = 2x6.5" bass, 4" Mid, 1" Tweeter.

The Budget in US Dollar is about US$540/pr up to US$2200/pr. But remember the available choices and prices are different in Europe.

Steve/bluewizard
Thank you for response, you are right in every aspect about what i seek.. NS-555 states only frequency 35Hz..35kHz responce, but without dB it can mean anything.. And i don't "feel" them..

I currently Bi-wired them and as you said listen to music only in stereo and ATM only through my Beyerdynamic T90 as i'am missing something from my NS-555 + Pioneer VSX-923..

But this could also be the problem of room, placement, receiver or whatever.. Other thing i could think bout is getting stereo amp, but i don't know how to use receiver + amp with 1 pair of speakers? Would i need to rewire each listening session?

About preference, i am not a basshead, but i still miss that low end impact frequently. Preference is Rock, Trance, House (not the deep one) :) Rock mostly...

So i believe main question in my situation how to improve 2.0 sounding with what i have. Most impact i think would have speakers upgrade.. But then i'am afraid vsx-923 would be incapable, or maybe it is so even with NS-555 at least in music.

And yes, descent sub can cost 1000 EUR.. As most of them says nothing with frequency response only without dB measurement, so it can be useless.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,866 Posts
With AVR + stereo amp you connect the L/R speakers to the stereo amp, C, S/R and sub to AVR, connect pre-out from your AVR to your stereo amp - ideally into power amplifier inputs if it has one.

As for Yamaha speakers spec probably +/- 10 dB. With that 35khz tweeter spec, that kinda shows inflated spec.

You can estimate from other speakers, what usually is 6.5" ported floorstanders? 40-60hz or thereabouts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
...

About preference, i am not a basshead, but i still miss that low end impact frequently. Preference is Rock, Trance, House (not the deep one) :) Rock mostly...

...
Have you considered listening to music in 2.1? At least give it a try. I'm assuming that is an option on you AV Receiver.

Also, when you play in 2.0, aren't the Tone Controls active? Try just cranking the bass up a bit. Unless I am mistaken, for 5.1 movies, the tone controls are defeated, and the amp instead relies on Room EQ to balance the sound. But in 2.0, the Tone Controls should be active.

Bass can be deceiving. A speaker that seems to have intense bass, typically has flabby droning bass that gets annoying after a while. When I auditioned the Focal 800 series, my initial impression was that there wasn't much bass at all. Then I shifted my focus from my ears to my body and realized I could feel the bass slamming into my body. The bass was rendered to perfection, with no drone or excess emphasis, just body slamming crystal clear bass.

What was missing was the droning exaggerated bass I had grown accustom to hearing on cheaper speakers.

In my opinion, what a person wants is bass clarity and impact, not over-amped drone, we want real bass, not an imitation of bass. Though you are certainly free to hold any opinion you want.

So, if possible, try 2.1. That will give you more impact.

Try 2.0 with a bit of bass boost on the Tone Controls.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, there is a button to by-pass the internal Room EQ. Room EQ is geared toward movies, but frequently falls short for music. Try defeating the EQ and see if that brings some life to your music.

Your Pioneer amp seem pretty up to date with 150w/ch, and overall Pioneer Receivers have a good reputation.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/archive/VSX-923-K/page.html

As to the Front speakers, poor placement, meaning too close to the wall, mean excess bass to the detriment of the Midrange. That doesn't seem to be your problem. Though we can't really know without the dimensions of the room and the placement of the equipment.

Yamaha doesn't really have a strong reputation in HiFi speakers, and by that I mean they don't have as high a profile as many of the more common HiFi brands, but, in my experience, Yamaha does make very good sounding speakers, and they look pretty cool too.

Just out of curiosity can you tell use what you paid for the Front Speakers and for the AV Receiver, that might lend some perspective to your suggestions.

Steve/bluewizard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,195 Posts
Since in your in Europe, look for a pair of speakers from a company called Audio Physic which are made in Germany. They make great looking and sounding speakers. Look on the used market for a pair of Tempo's up to the Scorpio's on the used market.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top