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I got a call yesterday from NEC. I asked why I am not getting the same price Dell is getting.


The answer is Dell is not an NEC dealer. They are not getting the projectors from NEC ether.

NEC will also not be warranty these units.


There was a distributor that had a large sale that fell through and they are is desperate desire to move the units

to recover any money they can. According to NEC they struck a deal with Dell.


NEC is upset with the whole deal. Because the distributor is two stepping the units and giving them away there will be no warranty from NEC.

NEC will have nothing to do with this deal as they are getting in trouble with legit dealers complaining all over the country. I guess its caused quit a stir.


Better make sure Dell has a in house tech because the warranty ain't coming from NEC if theres a break down.


The Distributor may break down and not follow through but if it happens for the money grab em while you can!!


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Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com




[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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Thanks for the info Alan.


Sorry what do you mean by two stepping? Do you mean price slashing to move the products quicker?


How would NEC be able to identify these units as being part of the distributor's lot for warranty issues?


On the reliability side do these projectors have a good/bad track record?


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Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.


[This message has been edited by Lou Sytsma (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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What he means is that the units are NOT being sold directly by the distributor or people that did the purchasing from NEC. what the company MAY be doing is selling the units off at a LOSS, for taxation purposes. They would have to sold off as a LOT to get this sort of thing to go through with the IRS...as far as tax returns go. So, they find a buyer.. in this case, Dell.


Also, sales has always been about how much money passes through your hands, not exactly about how much money you have made. Money is made by passing large amounts of it through your hands. Think of banks and such. As far as distributors of electronics goes, this is very much the situation. They NEED to get these funds back, so they can funnel them back into movable stock.. as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.


Get the engine running again, by popping the clutch... before the car stops moving. This is EXACTLY what the distributor is doing. Saving their business.


Since they are NOT direct, single unit at-a-time sales to the end buyer (in this case, authorized retailer), this is called two-stepping.


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goosystems.com


Ken Hotte

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[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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Alan:


After reading your post I talked to an NEC customer service rep, who put me on hold for five minutes and made some calls. He finally reported that the company was well aware of the Dell situation--no surprise there!--but that they WOULD honor the warranty.


Now, we all know from five days of living through Dell Hell to trust telephone reps, no matter how nice they are, about as far as you could throw ME -- which is not far :)


When I bought a Pioneer DVD player a couple of years ago from a gray-market dealer (didn't know that fact at the time), I kept calling Pioneer to find out whether or not there would be a warranty on that $2200-list DV-09, which I got WAY cheaper than any authorized dealer was selling it. No warranty, yes warranty, no, yes, no, yes. Finally, I just plugged the damned thing in and crossed my fingers.


I am not willing to do that on the LT150, however. No warranty, no sale.


AVS may just be getting those orders back after all.


Mike
 

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Alan,


I certainly understand why NEC would say what they did - especially to you, another NEC reseller. But, IMO, there is no way NEC would not warranty these units. First of all, Dell is an authorized NEC reseller. And probably more important, how do you think Dell would feel about NEC if they tried to not honor the warranty on all of these units? I doubt NEC would be willing to piss of Dell over the warranty.


A bigger concern for NEC is their collection of other resellers. However since such groups rarely coordinate their cause, NEC will pay attention to the single largest financial risk, which will be Dell.


Time will tell...


jeff
 

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If NEC says they won't honour the warrenty, im sure DELL will have a word with them, it is in fact Dell's reputation this is at stack, so i think in the end it will have full warenty either by dell or Nec
 

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I've seen manufacturers reps lie through their teeth on occasions in order to not seem like the bad guy. I'd like to see the original invoice from NEC to whoever they sold these 1000 units to.


One Dell rep told me they had 1000 of these units.


I used to handle video/audio hardware many moons ago directly. I have only 2 stepped a few items since. Thats the way MANY MANY dealers operate. There are often several channels of distribution by manufactuers as well. A division that sells at a higher price to AV dealers for example, and a division that handles major accounts directly.


Happens more obviously with automobiles for example. Do you think the rental car companies buy from dealers?


Larry


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This thousand units doesn't make sense. If they really have a 1000 units, why aren't they being shipped yet? The saga continues. I think there are gonna be a lot of angry resellers (or maybe customers) out there as this story settles. Sounds like NEC is the main culprit here.
 

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Nec is quite likely the one who will be taking the hit and bath here. THey are probably in a situation where they ahve to decide to 'release' the units to the person(s) who originally ordered them and made the payment guarantee(whatever the amount or percentage was).


then they have to deal with the flack from the dealrs that are harmed.


Then they have to warranty the units that NO-ONE has made a CENT off of, except for DELL.


I fully expect taht the units WILL be realeased for sale through dell, and this will be closely monitored as a example of a situation that NEC will be watching for, to make sure it NEVER happens again.


So, I expect NEC to play the 'Stand Up Guy' and take the heat.. due to a situation that is absolutely NOT THEIR FAULT. it's the distributor that 'ordered the 1000 units' that is at fault. And they fell prey to asituation where the company they sold the units to... died on the vine. So, every-one looses here, except the buyer, and the seller, in this case..Dell, and you, if you ordered one.


Don't count on it ever happening again, any time soon.


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Ken Hotte

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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger:
NEC will also not be warranty these units.
I'd like to see how they can pull that one off. Other manufacturers have tried that line and lost big.


--Jerome
 

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I wouldn't see how NEC would get away with it either way. It didn't say on the Dell website, special offer units, with no warranty. If I had just been Joe Schmo looking, knew nothing about this projector and decided just to pick it, how would I know that it wasn't under warrantee? I wouldn't so I dont think Dell would go far with that plan.
 

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The amount of money that YOU as a buyer of this unit, are seeing, is probably EXACTLY the per-uint DEPOSIT that the ORIGINAL buyer paid to the DISTRIBUTOR..to get them to make the 1000 unit order with NEC.


To save ass, and cash flow, the DISTRIBUTOR is selling-tru, to DELL, and making the deal happen, by trying to create a zero-loss point for themselves..by pasing on the money from the deposit (per unit amount) as the DISCOUNT purchase price FOR Dell.


Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking you are fianlly seeing the real costing on these units. NOTHING could be further from the truth.


There is very great chance that this is exactly what is happening with this low price you are getting.


The 'bankrupt' company is providing the discount..with their death.


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goosystems.com


Ken Hotte

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Alan,


Was this the same rep that convinced you with absolute certainty that the deal was bogus in the first place? Sounds like someone's been handing you a line.


I seriously doubt NEC will fail to handle warranty issues.


--Les
 

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If what Alan heard is true, I hold the following opinion. I worked for a large multi-billion dollar distributor for many years. Manufacturers cannot dictate pricing for which a distributor or reseller sells a product. There is MAP or Minimum Advertised Pricing where marketing funds are provided only if a minimum pricing level is advertised. Beyond that, the Fair Trade Act prohibits price fixing. As far as I can tell, neither the distributor nor Dell has done anything wrong. It appears as though NEC stuffed the channel with LT 150s and did not manage their inventory well. As far as the warranty is concerned, unless loss of warranty was a condition of sale and the packaging explicitly states no warranty, NEC is under contractual obligation to stand behind the warranty. NEC is at fault here and should have stock balanced the original distributor's inventory and spread the product to other dealers and distributors with a price incentive. Just my opinion.


Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Dell is not an authorized NEC dealer or reseller.


They are getting the units from a distributor and will have to rely on them for any warranty to take place.


Just a heads up.

Be careful!!


[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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It's quite possible that once all the chapped butts are healed, this situation will not be a big deal to NEC or Dell. What are we talking about here? A few hundred or maybe a few thousand projectors? Of course, rocking the boat with all the other reseller is not a good thing, but I really think everyone can come out way ahead if the overall market for front projectors grows more rapidly. Current margins may not survive if projectors become more common, but that hasn't stopped many computer companies from becoming rich beyond any reasonable measure.


What does it take to grow a market? Gez, if I knew the magic formula I wouldn't be working for a government contractor, but I do know that price is one of the major hurdles for the first time buyer. You can't really nickle and dime a major home theater component like the projector. It's been the single biggest expense for the majority of HomeTheater owners, and I expect that price has kept the large majority of members out of the front projection market. This deal will open the door for many that couldn't get in before, so this one time event is going to lead to long term benefits for many many companies. My thinking goes like this, once you get someone into the market for front projection you will make them a life long customer.


It's also worth noting the all of the projectors are technically HDTV displays, so anyone who purchased one of these should take some time and look into HDTV decoder options. Maybe Alan can put together a package for those that are interested?


[This message has been edited by JoeFloyd (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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Alan:


I'm really perplexed now. Are you saying that only businesses and institutions are entitled to NEC warranty coverage? Whether or not the purchaser used the projector for home theater (as I would) or in the classroom (as I also would) would be pretty difficult for NEC to determine. In other words, if my projector broke down at school, NEC would fix it; but if it broke down in my living room, they wouldn't. How would they know? Wouldn't projectors be less vulnerable to damage while mounted on a ceiling than bouncing around in a travel case? They should prefer home theater use. They also get to sell more bulbs that way.


The warranty as printed in the LT150 manual says nothing about coverage limitations of the sort you describe. It would have been easy to add: This warranty does not cover use by private consumers in home theater installations.


Why would NEC even permit their projectors to be sold to individuals? Why not require a business or institutional title and address for all deliveries and on the warranty card?


Mike


P.S. Did you just pull your post about home theater use not being covered? It sounds like I'm responding to thin air here.


But as an ADDED NOTE, the NEC manual CLEARLY says that projectors not sold by AUTHORIZED dealers are not covered by warranty. I know that this is not the policy of the other projector manufacturers I have spoken to; they have told me that as long as a legitimate DISTRIBUTOR purchased their inventory from them (as opposed to gray-market importers), then the product retains full warranty support. Why would NEC sell a product to a wholesaler, knowing that they were leaving the final purchaser out in the cold? Yes, it's in black and white, but it makes no sense.


[This message has been edited by catullus (edited 07-24-2001).]
 

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I'm thinking AVS should probably start thinking about ALL LT150 options, packages, accessories, etc. Look at the customer base they are about to have. This board alone shows a prospective base of 80+ new owners sometime in the next month or so.


Sounds like a good market for decoders, screens, bulbs, amps, preamps, HT packages.


Hey, can I get a commision here?


-Olo
 

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Alan didn't say that DELL wouldn't honor the warranty - he's saying that NEC won't offer warranties on machines that Dell sold. I have my doubts, but I suppose its possible.


Still, Dell can't sell a machine without a warranty without advertising that fact. So I think there will be a warranty on the machines, but that Dell could be on the hook for it. I've run into situations like this before - I've tried to send a machine back to the manufacturer, and they've told me, "Oh, you bought it from XXX. You have to go back to them to get it serviced under warranty." So you go back to XXX, and they get it fixed, and if NEC won't honor the warranty, then company XXX has to eat the cost. NEC will still repair the machine, just not under warranty.


Anyway, that's a possibility, and what it might mean is added hassle if you do have to get the machine repaired, and perhaps extra delays in getting it back. But I don't think there is any way both parties (NEC and Dell) can wriggle out of honoring the warranty on these in some way.


BTW, the MAP restriction would be a good explanation for why Dell yanked the projectors off their web site while still selling them over the phone. They can sell them at whatever price they want, but they can't advertise the price.

 

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I’ve been wondering how these companies are able to get away with this "no warranty" business.


You see this a lot now, especially with Internet sales of audio equipment. I was deciding between two receivers -- Onkyo and Denon. Both companies now have big splashy disclaimers on their web sites, saying that they won’t honor warranties for their receivers, if you buy them through "non-authorized" (i.e. Internet) retailers. Notice, we’re not talking about gray market.


These companies all benefit from back channel, lower cost sales of their products. The more product in user’s hands, the more buzz gets generated for their company. So they don’t really want to limit those sales. What they want is to have their cake and eat it too. They want to keep the high volume sales through every possible channel, but also protect their brick and mortar dealers, who are screaming about competition from Internet sales. It’s the consumer who gets caught in the middle. We get treated like we’re buying stolen equipment off the back of a truck in a dark alley. I know this is just a symptom of the immaturity of the industry, as it tries to figure out how to deal with both online and storefront sales. But I still hate being caught in the middle like that. I worked hard for my money, and I expect manufacturer support for the equipment I buy.


I did end up buying a receiver online, but I paid a bit more than the lowest possible price, in order to work with an online dealer with a good reputation. Supposedly, I don’t have a "real" Denon warranty because this isn't an "authorized" dealer... but the dealer offers their own warranty on the product. If I ever have problems under the normal warranty period and can’t work with the Internet retailer for a repair, then I plan to go to Denon directly.


Most states have laws about implied warranty. It probably wouldn’t take more than a letter to your state’s consumer protection agency, along with copies to the manufacturer, to get repair service. Manufacturers hate dealing with all the different local agencies. It’s easier for them to just agree to do repair service.


P.S. I bought a projector from AVSCIENCE and I support those guys... they do a great job. This is more of a general rant about the state of online sales. If you don't want to support a product, then DON'T PUT IT IN THE PIPELINE!
 
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