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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When I render mvc in Vegas Pro 10e I get two files an avc file and a mvc file. I have not found a way to get an m2ts file which inclused the audio. Please can someone tell me how I can use these files. I have not yet found a multiplexer.


I have created a 3D blu-ray disc and exported the ssif file but this is a very long winded way of doing it. Thanks
 

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MVC is only foresseen to be used for the 3D Blu Rays. But since you do not have any economic authoring tool beside the Vegas burning function from the timeline, at the moment there is not much use for the two files.


A better way could be to use other Encoders to create side-by-side full or whatever - for example the Mainconcept AVC encoder or the Mainconcept mpeg2 encoder. Here you have the possibility to include audio in the template settings.
 

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trevor- I am interested in creating an MVC file rendering that can be exported back into the TD10 via PMB. I have been experimenting with some short VEG projects to render in different "render As" custom settings and none has worked so far.


You mentioned a long winded approach and I wonder what that is, step by step. Does this get you an m2ts file that can be exported to the TD10 via PMB? Have you considered some 3rd party ripping utilities? eg. make a BluRay disk and rip it to a 3D file that can be played in the TD10. I'm eager to test all options even "long winded" ones with 3rd party to satisfy my project needs, which is simply to load a completed 3D video production back into the TD10 for playback in the field.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Don that is exactly what I wanted to do. As I said the render produces 2 files which must be mutiplexed but I have been unable to find a multiplexer to do it.


Looking at the file produced the TD10 with mediainfo it contains 2 video streams one a standard AVC and the other is "Stereo High".


The ssif file on the blu-ray is different as it only contains a "Stereo High" but it plays 2D in my player.


The mainconcept encoder produces an MVC file but mediainfo fails to identify.


At the moment I edit with Adobe CS5 with Cineform Neo.


So it is all very confusing. Why did Sony include rendering to files which are of no practical use.
 

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Some of those renderings are of practical use in Blu Print which I was told can handle several different 3D file structures on input. But BluPrint is specifically geared to mastering 3DBD. I think what we need is a specific MVC rendering that is exactly what the m2ts MVC file is that we get FROM PMB when we import the TD10 3D videos. As far as I can see Vegas 10e does not offer that custom setting. I came close at 16Mbs but when I tried to render that the Vegas crashed. What I did was custom build a template that was 1080 60i 1920 16 Mbs and output as m2ts but the only 3D setting was SBS. From what I tested so far there is nothing that renders a 3D video that is a format that is like what is recorded by the TD10. I sent a love note to Sony dev team on this and I'll let you know what they say when they get around to answering.


I think what we're seeing in these editors is a software that is retrofitted for 3D rather than a product designed from the ground up as a 3D editing package. It should be interesting to see what a version 11 of Vegas does. I would not be surprised if each of these good suggestions is built into Vegas 11 for 3D like ability to render to 3D files that can be played in real time and be exported to the TD10 for playback. Then DVDA fully supporting 3D too. The new releases usually come out in the Fall so just a few more months...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ok I think I understand now. The files produced by the TD10 contain 2 streams multiplexed into one M2TS file. The 2 streams are the Base view which is standard AVC of the left or right eye and the dependent view which contains the differences with the other eye. The dependent view only needs about half the bit rate of the base view.


The ssif file is slightly different. It interleaves the two streams in blocks on the disc. I guess this is so a 2D player can just ignore the 3D blocks.


So all we need to do is to find a multiplexer which will multiplex the AVC and MVC files.
 

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Close- The TD10 produces an MTS file. the PMB converts it to m2ts and extracts the meta data so the m2ts has a new file name related to time and date of the clip. That m2TS contains video 1 which is the left camera in 2D and the second video file that really is a difference file that the codec uses to compute on the fly the right eye video for display. That's why the editing of 3D video is so CPU intensive. Then there is the audio file that is also muxed. for 5.1 we have the AC3 and the stereo. You can get the left and right eye files individually but you have to render them that way in the 3D stereoscopic settings. What I'm looking for is a render as that renders the timeline to a file that is compatible with the TD10. This can be an m2ts file of exact same parameters as the files created by the TD10 after PMB conversion. Then the PMB should be able to handle the export back to the TD10 with the m2ts file converted back to the MTS file sets. These would be broken up into several sequentially numbered less than 2Gb files. I think you need the PMB to put the files back onto the TD10 or the indexing would get screwed up.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20841850


I think what we're seeing in these editors is a software that is retrofitted for 3D rather than a product designed from the ground up as a 3D editing package. It should be interesting to see what a version 11 of Vegas does. I would not be surprised if each of these good suggestions is built into Vegas 11 for 3D like ability to render to 3D files that can be played in real time and be exported to the TD10 for playback. Then DVDA fully supporting 3D too. The new releases usually come out in the Fall so just a few more months...

You should no expect soo much!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It looks as though we will have to wait version 11. My present workflow is to extract left and right as cineform with mvctoavi. I can then merge the views with Firstlight and edit in Premiere Pro. I can then export to half side by side. I can also split into left and right and combine as full side by side in premier. I can then use Nvidia 3D player to play the video.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorjharris /forum/post/20845414


It looks as though we will have to wait version 11. My present workflow is to extract left and right as cineform with mvctoavi. I can then merge the views with Firstlight and edit in Premiere Pro. I can then export to half side by side. I can also split into left and right and combine as full side by side in premier. I can then use Nvidia 3D player to play the video.

Talk about a work flow? I'll just be happy for now to haul around a BD-RE made from Vegas timeline direct. There is a point where the software solution is just too awkward not to mention a complete waste of money.

I know Richard Adams and others have had success with stereographic player and I'm happy for them but I haven't even found a compelling enough reason to spend the money on that. To date, I'm doing just fine completing projects with a simple TD10 to PMB to Vegas to BD-RE work flow. Would have been nice to be able to export a completed video back to the TD10 for portable playback in simple one viewer 3D but until Vegas gives me a render template for that, I'll wait.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20845919


Talk about a work flow? I'll just be happy for now to haul around a BD-RE made from Vegas timeline direct. There is a point where the software solution is just too awkward not to mention a complete waste of money.

I know Richard Adams and others have had success with stereographic player and I'm happy for them but I haven't even found a compelling enough reason to spend the money on that. To date, I'm doing just fine completing projects with a simple TD10 to PMB to Vegas to BD-RE work flow. Would have been nice to be able to export a completed video back to the TD10 for portable playback in simple one viewer 3D but until Vegas gives me a render template for that, I'll wait.

For portable autostereoscopic (without glasses like TD10) but larger and with more resolution there are two different brands of 3D phones on the market. HTC and LG make them. If you don't want that cell service, these can be bought new on ebay.

Benefits
  • Less money than TD10
  • Bigger screen than TD10
  • Can play Vegas output (SBS mode then MP4 convert)
  • Media using microSD has more storage than BD-R
  • If the economy was better I'd buy you one for the holidays...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1349071


Also, for about the same money as a TD10, Toshiba has Toshiba Qosmio F750/F755an autostereoscopic 15" laptop computer now shipping. This one could play the MVC files from vegas using the stereoscopic player. There is also a 12" tablet that was seen in demo last December.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20845919


Would have been nice to be able to export a completed video back to the TD10 for portable playback in simple one viewer 3D but until Vegas gives me a render template for that, I'll wait.

I do not think that Sony will prepare a template for that - even if I agree that it would be nice. But that is not the typical workflow some will expect - that will use 3D Blu Rays I think. But for that I would hope that the DVDA will learn how to author 3D Blu Rays.


And it would be great to have a muxed file - for hardware mediaplayer that should be abel to playback 3D files in the future too.
 

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To follow up on Richard's post, the LG Optimus 3D has a thorough review here, published today: http://3dvision-blog.com/


But a key finding in this review is that there are 5 viewing angles, not just one, that deliver the full-color, glassless 3D effect. That means the screen can be viewed by more than one person. It is thus a superior 3D video sharing device than passing around the TD10, which has a smaller screen and one viewing angle for 3D.


The Optimus does have a 1.4 HDMI port; you can watch 1920x1080 3D 1/2 frame videos on a big screen of your choice as well, using the phone as a player. (As noted, it will play Sony 3D Bloggie videos natively - no need to edit at all.)
 

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Am I the only one here who as actually seen these 3D laptops and cell phones? I hope they are greatly improved today than what I saw in April at the show. The PQ was awful! About the same 3D quality as the Bloggie3D screen and bigger. It's easy to write "more resolution than the TD10" but to date, the absolute best PQ on an autostereo screen I have seen IS the TD10. Sony had some AMOLED autostereo screens that were equal to the TD10 quality plus in larger size but none superior to it. And, extremely expensive.


Solution is simple- make a Vegas template for m2ts to export a rendered MVC file back to the TD10. For high quality and ease of use and portability its going to be difficult to beat that work flow.


Of course, I'd also like to upgrade my ipad to one that had an autostereoscreen too, even if only for single view. Richard you can buy me one of these and by the time they are available our economy will be better.
I'll go for the ipad 3D before any laptop.


BTW- the multiviewer autostereo screens are even more difficult to align your head with the screen than the single viewer. In a single viewer you have a little wiggle room. With the multiviewer there is none.2
 

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"Am I the only one here who as actually seen these 3D laptops and cell phones? I hope they are greatly improved today than what I saw in April at the show. The PQ was awful! About the same 3D quality as the Bloggie3D screen and bigger."


Don, I don't know what you saw at "the show", but I *own* the LG Optimus 3D, the TD10 and the Bloggie 3D. I can tell you that the Optimus 3D screen provides a better 3D view than the TD 10. Period. The Bloggie screen is the worst by far of any glassless 3D screen I have ever seen. The Nintendo 3DS provides a bigger and much better 3D screen than the 3D Bloggie. So, I am with you on the comparison of the TD10 and Bloggie, but the Optimus is better - bigger, just as colorful and 3D enabling, and less finicky on viewing angle than the TD10. Did you actually see this phone? I would infer, given I trust your judgement, you have not seen the Optimus. So I guess I in fact am the only one to be able to compare.


I would suggest you look at actual retail versions of the phones. I think, given your experience, you will be surprised. The AT&T version of the 3D Optimus (The "Thrill) will be availabe soon, and will be cheap with contract. I have not seen a larger screen than the 4.3" that was glassless that I have liked. The 3D Optimus, btw, plays the Bloggie 3D videos natively; no conversion needed.


The review that I linked is by a guy who is really an expert on all things 3D and who has reviewed multiple 3D TV's and 3D monitors ; he has absoultely no issues with the quality of the 3D viewing expereince of the Optimus.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20849222


Solution is simple- make a Vegas template for m2ts to export a rendered MVC file back to the TD10. For high quality and ease of use and portability its going to be difficult to beat that work flow.

Are you aware that this does not work? I do not think that you are. The Sony AVC/MVC encoder does not allow customization of templates. For MVC there is everything locked, unfortunately.
 

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Quote:
Did you actually see this phone?

There were several on display at the show but I don't recall specifically any from Optimus. I do recall htc as I have interest in that company's new devices as I like the company and own the htc Thunderbolt. I trust your judgement too so you have just sent me on a mission to seek out a demo in the coming weeks on the Optimus 3D phone.


I expect technology to improve but we're seeing a very rapid rate of development in 3D options now. Amazing. It is why I have had to get very conservative at throwing money at any hole in my work flow these days. Why I put buying a new computer on the back burner and am treading very carefully at buying a second TD10. Your witness to this aspect just has me even more convinced to tighten the wallet on this stuff.


Back to what you are doing with this- Have you gotten down to rendering your 3D videos for display on the Optimus now? If so, I'd like to see you list a step by step work flow.

Would it be as simple as:

1.from a completed Veg timeline; render to an mp4 sbs Half or wmv SBS half or full etc.

2. transfer the file to the Micro SD card.

3. Play in 3D on the Optimus.


If this is as good as you say, the only advantage of an ipad may be to get bigger screen. ( My ultimate goal for portable viewing )


BTW- Mark- yesterday, I was at my daughter's 30th birthday suprise party and shot much of it on the TD10, today rendering. It would be so much fun having a way to display this in 3D to pass around the room on an ipad. But I did pass the TD10 around with the one of the clips playing and everyone was so fascinated by the quality and 3D demonstration. Only my kids knew about the technology but what surprised me is how easy and fun the older family members saw 3D. No one had trouble with it. One little 4 year old boy at the party didn't want to give the camcorder back. I put it in shoot mode which was the big mistake. He was giggling constantly running around shooting everything in sight in 3D. Luckily he never dropped it. His mother said he is very fascinated with cameras and he constantly picks up her digital and bangs off a bunch of photos. She said, Now I suppose he'll want a 3D. So, I showed her the Bloggie 3D and told her that was more durable and costs 1/6 as much. I think her kid will be getting a Bloggie3D for Christmas.
 

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Don, I have been almost desperately seeking a way to share 3D videos with people that gives them the full 3D experience - full color, full 3D and no glasses. I have had exactly the same experience as you with showing 3D videos, but by passing around the Optimus. I can report that people ages 8-93 literally said "wow" and were mesmerized - I had trouble getting the phone back. No one complained about the small screen.


By the way, while one would think that a big glassless screen is good (like an iPad with an autostereoscopic screen), I actually think that will not work: the technology is such that there is really only one optimal angle, and you really have to hold the screen up in one position about a foot away from your head. You cannot therefore just prop up the the, say, 10" screen, on a table like a photo viewer. Each person has to get in the right zone. Holding up an iPad even with two hands for more than 2 minutes is too tiring. The small devices are light and easily held for 15 minutes (as I have witnessed); the TD10 is marginally light.


I have all of my TD10 3D videos that went to Youtube on the phone, plus the Bloggie ones (plus, btw, Avatar (just for fun and comparison)).


Ok, the workflow:


I took the 1/2-frame 1080p 3D .mts videos I made in Vegas, and converted them to 1080p mp4 with aac audio in another program. For some reason, the Optimus would not play an MP4 made by Vegas with what looked like the same specs. I am sure with some work, we could figure out what went wrong. But almost any program but Vegas that made an mp4 out of my 1/2-frame mts with AC3 worked fine (no special 3D editor needed for that, as you know).


Interestingly, the downloaded 1080p 3D mp4 videos from Youtube - downloaded from the Youtube site - play perfectly on the Optimus. If you can get your hands on an Optimus, just download, say, your own videos from Youtube, put them on an sd card and insert (you do have to put them in a particular directory), and you will see your own videos, not just clips. Wait, you can just play them by going to the Youtube site using the built-in 3D Youtube viewer - they will automatically play in 3D, streaming fashion. It's magic. No download necessary.


The Optimus will play 3D mp4, mkv videos at high bitrates, at least 30p and 1080 resolution with no problem; just has to be 1/2 frame sbs. You tell it, just like the monitors, whether you have l-r, r-l, and t-b (it automatically assumes r-l for some reason, which is why it loves Youtube 3D!).
 

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All that is excellent information. I will be definitely seeking out a demo on the device. May need to toss the Bloggie 3D if I get one.



How well does it work without phone service? I could still use the wifi without phone service right?If I needed internet, I could always tether it to my Thunderbolt and LTE for YouTube. Did I miss anything?
 

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I said I was desperate, so I investigated the Nintendio 3DS as a 3D viewer. It displays glassless 3D on a 3.5" 800x240 screen. The device displays .mpo photos in 3D -and they look fine. These include its own mediocre 3D photos, but also 3D Bloggie .mpos and Fuji W3 mpos, the best .consumer .mpos you can make. Just put them on an sd card, and it will show them in glassless 3D in full multi-million color. The screen is not as quite as good as the W3 or TD10 screen, but it is very good and, of course, much, much better than the 3D Bloggie screen.


Now, what about 3D video?


The good news: The 3DS plays 3D videos. The videos look great. You can adjust the depth. The device automatically downloads 3D videos from Nintendo's site and you can play them - they have had, for example, 3D trailers for Captain America and Glee plus 3D music videos plus some fun 3D videos. Not cartoons, real 3D videos.


The bad news: There is no way *yet* to put your own 3D videos, like your own .mpo's, on the device that I know of. Obviously, it could be done if Nintendo allows it. There have been many major firmware upgrades (unlike Sony cameras) - adding a browser, adding the video playing capability as above, adding Netflix (works really well). It is clear that Nintendo intends to expand the capabilities of the device, and as they say, particularly for non game players (like me). The strategy is to make it more versatile to have a broader appeal.


The reason the Ninetendo is possibly "the answer" for getting the masses to enjoy 3D is that it is cheap and the experience is surprisingly good. For stills, a Bloggie and the 3DS ($169) is all you need for really enjoying 3D photography cheaply right now (tell your kids and their friends).


Just one little step, and the same could be true for 3D video.
 
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