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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone with MPEGs experiencing the problems with Sync issues there is a new version of the very cool application GSpot that may be helpful.


Download GSpot 2.2 from doom9.org (on the front page for the date of 5/18 or it's under the software downloads under "AVI Editing tools"


Get this application and unzip the package.


Open GSpot, select Open from the file menu.

Select to show files "Video Media Files (*.avi, *.mov, *.mpg, etc)"

Select a problem MPEG (any will do we just need to find out what codec is being used)

Most of the information in the window will be of no use, down at the bottom there is a pane titled "Direct Show Render" This is what we need to know.


Click the Render button and report back your findings

Video Src Type: Should be MPEG2_VIDEO

Audio Src: Should be MPEG1AudioPlayload

Video Path: (This is what we need to know)

Audio Path: (This is what we need to know)


Provide this info an Rich and I may be able to figure this out. =)
 

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Cool Name at least.. I'll have to "Find the GSpot"... :)
 

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video path: (S) --> MainConcept MPEG Splitter --> MainConcept MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)


audio path: (S) --> MainConcept MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)


My replay files play fine on my pc. But when I create dvd's the audio gets out of sync with the video more and more as the movie goes on.
 

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I'll download it tomorrow morning and post my results... I have had sub 100ms issues for a while... they seemed to go away _mostly_ on a clean install on a new hd... and got better...


I have also had some luck with the latest womble builds, , but I cant tell how much yet...


tmpgenc demux/remux was my golden fix for a while...
 

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Video Path (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)

Audio Path (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)


I get progressive audio sync problems (video ahead of audio) on my pc and on my standalone dvd player.using Mpeg2Cut to lose the first gop, tmpgenc to demux, dvdlab to author/burn. When I use Mpeg2cut to remove commercials, the sync problems are much worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm also curious about what working systems show. Really curious is Rich's configuration. =)


One I'm on at the moment...
Code:
Code:
V:(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> Overlay Mixer2 --> (R)
A:(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> Morgan Stream Switcher --> (R)
Not sure if this system has the problem or not...



Aaron, I'd suggest the sync after edit is a direct result of Mpeg2Cut. =(
 

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Quote:
Aaron, I'd suggest the sync after edit is a direct result of Mpeg2Cut. =(
Jeff,


The bummer is that mpeg2cut is the only program that has shown an ability to fix the gop headers so that my files are editable in tmpgenc (and presumable other proggies, too, but after dl'ing and running dozens and dozens, I'm trying to cut down :) ). Ulead burned my dvds just fine after reencoding, but they still couldn't be opened in my editing progs.


I'd buy Womble at the new price, but I'm hearing lots of folks with the same sync issues as I have now even using womble.


I sincerely hope we get to the real problem.


A
 

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Hi Guys,


As usual I'm up to my ears in work. First time I've had a chance to check into the forum in a few days. Here's what I've found on two of my systems:


On the NLE dedicated computer:



Video Source Type {1B81BE0D-A0C7-11D3-B984-00C04F2E73C5}

Audio Source Type MPEG2_AUDIO


Video Path - S) --> MPEG-2 Demultiplexer --> CyberLink Video/SP Decoder (ATI) --> Overlay Mixer2 --> (R)

Audio Path - (S) --> MPEG-2 Demultiplexer --> CyberLink Audio Decoder (ATI) --> (R)


Note! This machine has always had some form of capture card in it. The last few years they have been ATI All In Wonder Video cards. Each install of those video cards included ATI's own codecs (the ATI thing has it's own DVD player) All these codecs are OEM'ed by CyberLink who ATI most likely licenses them from.


Also if I use GSpot on a ReplayTV elementary video only stream a different codec kicks in. In that case it uses the Ligos codec. The audio stream makes use of the DirectShow filters for playback.


On my "non-ATI" computer, (Ge-Force N-Vidia thing) everything is running off the Elecard codecs. I do have a ton of other codecs installed for Divv; and mpeg-4 and such as well as some AVI compressors. But the ReplayTV mpegs (and all mpeg-2 for that fact) use the above only.


In the 10 or more years I've been putzing with video, the only audio sync problem I ever had was with (believe it or not) a hardware Mpeg-1 encoder card. I spent about six months and couldn't find the problem. Then by mistake it got fixed. I was working on another problem involving VCD video and re-installed my Windows Media Player. Suddenly after that the hardware mpeg-1 encoder worked perfectly. And did for years after that. This was a few years ago, and I believe I was using Windows for Workgroups (version 3.11) Long ago and far far away in another MS galaxy so to speak. The hardware card was something called a "Snazzi" which was a pretty decent VCD encoder once I got around the audio sync problem. By the way, if I remember correctly everyone told me I could NOT uninstall Windows media player. But somehow (brain is foggy about it) I did and that one thing fixed both my video problem and the long standing audio sync problem.


It's a puzzlement for sure.
 

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Hi there,


I've always had sync problems, just downloaded GSpot here is the results :



Video Src Type : MPEG2_VIDEO

Audio Src : MPEG1AudioPayload

Video Path : (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> Unspecified VFW codec --> (R)

Audio Path : (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)



Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to provide.



AGP
 

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I've got:


Video Path: (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)

Audio Path: (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> MPEG Audio Decoder --> Morgan Stream Switcher --> (R)


I have the ATI AIW 7500 but almost always use Cyberlink's PowerDVD.


Tim
 

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(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> Elecard MPEG2 Video Decoder --> (R)

(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> Moonlight Odio Dekoda --> (R)


Since I discovered fix-time, I have not had audio sync problems at all. Occasionally during playback I notice momentary st-stuttering of the video. I burned "Survivor Amazon" beginning to end and had 5 instances of stuttering in 16.5 hours (minus commercials makes it nearer 12 hours).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Jim... I'm glad that's working for you, but as I've stated a 100 times before... Get rid of the elcard stuff, moonlight is the same company. Remove it, at least that's what I've found causes me many problems. But, if it's not broke don't fix it...




Aaron, look into avisynth, you can get a mpeg filter (mpeg2dec3.dll) that works with avisynth 2.5. Then create a simple script for the mpeg file you want to edit and open the avisynth script file in tmpegenc. Avisynth serves up frames as if it were an avi file, so tmpgenc thinks it's dealing with a avi file and can be happy working on that. I believe I posted a sample script, search for avisynth.

www.doom9.org is a great source for all tools I've mentioned. The link to the mpeg2dec3.dll avisynth filter is http://ziquash.chez.tiscali.fr/



Everyone else... it's looking like the ligos stuff is pretty common, maybe more research is needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hmmm, Jim, apparently I don't follow my own words...

Code:
Code:
(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> MainConcept MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)
(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)
How the hell did that get back in my system?!?!?! And... once again, Ligos is the audio codec.... hmmm


And on a file that consistantly gives me problems...
Code:
Code:
(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> Overlay Mixer2 --> (R)
(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
And to add fuel to the fire....

http://www.darvision.com/product/dvmpeg_compare.html


Seems like someone who knows what they are doing found problems with the ligos stuff.

Quote:
The figure on the right shows that Ligos LSX multiplexer have produced two errors that may be a sufficient reason of audio blip or jerk in the video playback.

(the numbers shown are in 27 MHz clock periods)
 

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Jeff .. so i removed the elecard stuff .. then went and installed nimo .. had to disable lameacd to prevent some errors ... and then playing replay files in Windows Media Player results in unable to load codec errors .. the video plays, but moving around in the file is not handled well and sometimes locks up .. so I install Elecard once more ...


now i have

(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> Elecard MPEG2 Video Decoder --> Subtitle Mixer --> (R)

(S) --> Elecard MPEG2 Demultiplexer --> Moonlight Odio Dekoda --> Morgan Stream Switcher --> (R)


IS there an alternative to elecard that works with Windows Media Player??
 

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My config with all of my stuff installed shows the following


(S) --> MPEG-2 Demultiplexer --> InterVideo Video Decoder --> (R)

(S) --> MPEG-2 Demultiplexer --> InterVideo Audio Decoder --> (R)


The other 'clean' install on another partitions will not render the video... no mpeg2 playback programs have been installed... just Womble and DMF2....
 

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Video Path (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)

Audio Path (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)


Short (under 1 hour) recordings typically are no problem. When they get longer, the audio sync is more noticable. At 1 1/2 to 2 hour recordings, bad audio sync is very noticable. I believe it's the "progressive sync" problem.


Womble is a crap-shoot as far as fixing the audio. My only solution that has worked consistently is the very time-consuming process of GOP fixing in Womble, demuxing the audio and video, deleting the audio and saving the demuxed video, extracting the sound as a .wav file using VirtualDub from the original, re-compressing the audio using CoolEdit, re-muxing the file, and then authoring the DVD. It takes a LONG time, but the sound is perfectly in sync.
 

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Sorry in advance for my upcoming rambling. Bare with me.


Going though all that work is far too much aggravation in my estimation. I think all of you guys need to get to the situation where you can just


Off load the mpeg.

optionally cut out any commercial content.

Author the DVD.


Comparing all these systems might be one way to solve the problem. And I mean "solve" the problem. Not bandaid it. I see a lot of "fixes" which involve going through a ton of work. A real "fix" would be one that allows you to USE the RPTV as is. Like I have been doing. I'm sure we all appreciate the many "solutions" that work for some and not others. But that's the problem. I've been preaching this for a year now. It is a "system specific" problem. And as many "systems" there are, there are also just as many bandaids. What works for one might work for 2 or 3 others but not everyone.


I'm putting a new system together this weekend. (A 3 gHz Barton Athlon) This is going to replace my old NLE machine. I am building this thing up from scratch and not upgrading as I usually do. So I'll take a lot of notes and write down everything I use. And see if I have a new sync problem.


Again, I've never gotten a single ReplayTV sample from anyone that didn't work perfectly for me. Bottom line .. computer A won't author "MyMovie.mpg" without sound sync problem. Same "MyMovie.mpg" on computer B has NO sync problem.


While demuxing and doing all that stuff can eventually fix it, (and that's okay if you want to do all that) I believe we must do more of what this thread started and try comparing various systems in more detail to see why one works and one doesn't.


This neat utility is a step. But here's what I think. I believe that utility is only going to tell you what codecs are "registered" for any particular video. I believe guys are having trouble because they have too many codecs or other things that are bumping against each other. Let's be honest here. Have you installed any shareware DVD player just to see how it worked and then removed it. Or any editor? Or any media player (like RealPlayer which I avoid like the plague.) My NLE machine is something I protect and am VERY careful about installing things on it. I don't do a lot of browsing with it. I don't have any virus protection. (I check it for virus via the LAN from another computer) No Real Player, none of that "Flash" stuff or dozens of audio compressors etc.


Keep in mind that some guys HAVE had success by simply reformatting their drives and starting from scratch. Which probably gets rid of all the excess garbage that's been building up and causing problems.


Years ago I learned about this with the ATI video cards. If you upgraded or intalled a newer ATI video card it was NOT enough to just un-install the old video card codecs and drivers etc. If you followed normal procedure you ended up with what I used to call "little bits or ATI crumbs" all through out your system. These dlls and other files were never really removed. AND they created big time problems and conflicted with the ATI new files.


I posted a procedure on my web site on how to safely remove all ATI "crumbs" from thoughout the system before you installed the new card. And you know what? ATI technicians were referring people to my site for help. (and they never even offered to pay me either!)


Well over the years, ATI improved their setup and things are a "little" simplier now. So what's this all mean? Unless you went into the registry and removed all those ATI crumbs and then removed a ton of ATI stuff left over in various Windows system folders and many other things, you would have huge problems getting your new ATI capture card to work. AND GUESS WHAT the BIGGEST problem was? Yup .. OUT OF SYNC audio. And of all those who had that problem, the POST EDIT sync problem was the biggest. They blamed editors. Guys said, use this editor or that one. They blamed the operating system. They blamed the DVD authoring software. They came up with a thousand different fixes. But once they did a "clean install" using my instructions .. 95 percent of them were fixed.


Okay so what's that all mean? It just an example of how you can even have trouble with two video capture cards .. both from the same manufacturer. And the trouble can manifest itself in a hundred different ways .. one being the dreaded audio sync problem.


Now If JUST a change of an ATI card can cause so much trouble, does it also make sense that if you tryed something like PowerDVD, then some other, then maybe the Honesteck editor. Then a trial of a Ulead product. And so on. Remembering that each one you install "might" not fully un-install itself.


Ya jes gotta practice "safe testing" with these computers today. Too many programs are interacting with others. Among other problems things are "registered" in your registry and Billy Gates' operating system is having trouble sorting it all out when those registry "crumbs" are conflicting with some other item.


And yes, I DO putz a lot with various programs testing and such. BUT, I go the extra step and always make an image of my system drive before I install any new media program or device. If it works fine and I decide to keep it .. I'm happy. If I don't want to keep it (for any reason) I don't even bother to remove it. I just restore the image. My system is always clean and I have no problems. Of course this requires a little more time. But then my NLE machine is only for that. I don't have email, or fancy browsers or word processors and all that stuff on it. The imaging is quick. And more importantly, I never have to spend days, weeks (months?) trying to fix various problems.


I'm not saying that's YOUR solution. It's how I operate. But then in the last 10 or 12 years, I have not had to waste "any" time jumping through hoops to fix these now-comon video problems.


I know this is a problem for those of you who only have one computer. But I'll be frank here. And I've got my flame proof suit on. If you want to play with the fancy toys, you should be willing to spend the $$. I've always had a second computer dedicated to multimedia. If I screw it up, there's no worry. My accounting, email and everyday stuff is safe on another computer. It's the only way to go. Right now, the other computer is burning the last two episodes I captured of Stargate while I'm typing this.


By the way. I just installed a new ATI capture card. One of those fancy Radeon 9000 series. The DVD mpeg I get out of that absolutely blows away the best ReplayTV mpeg I've seen. If it weren't simply for the ease of schecduling with the RPTV and the fact that I don't have to leave my CPU going 24/7, I'd be doing all my archiving on the ATI. (which years before the RPTV came around was the way I did it)


Off the soap box. Look to your system for the problem. If you can, get another computer to putz with. Start off with a bare bones system. Add programs one by one .. when you have everything you need to edit and burn your ReplayTV mpegs in less than a 1/2 hour (how long the whole process takes me) then image the drive .. and be happy. Otherwise, I fear you are going to be doomed to audio sync hell.


If you already have a dedicated computer, then make the jump. Reformat the drive and re-install your operating system. Install ONE mpeg codec. Install an editor. Install an authoring package. Make it work. Then burn baby burn. If you must play .. image the doggone system drive first.


Work smart .. not hard.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I've been going through uninstalling codecs and filters to figure out what works... currently I've removed.


ligos

elcard

mainconcepts and others.


I've just reinstalled powerdvd to check this one problem file with just the cyberlink stuff...


The only difference between my system and rich's is the splitter vs demultiplexer

Code:
Code:
(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Video/SP Decoder --> Overlay Mixer2 --> (R)
(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Audio Decoder --> (R)
Now, where to find this demux he's using...


Sorry, Rich I just want to try to match your working system...
 

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Rich:


That is EXCELLENT information--thanks!


Now, I have two questions:


1. For "one-computer people", one step to try (short of a re-format and re-install) might be to remove all the "unnecesary" codecs. Obviously, this can be a daunting task. In that "gspot" program mentioned above, there is a menu function called "View > Installed Codecs > Video" and "View > Installed Codecs > Audio". My machine here at work (just a base install of W2K per our company's standards) reports about 30 or so entries in the report. My home machine (Windows XP Pro), on which I do my video editing, has about *60* codecs installed.


Can you recommend a "safe" way of removing these codecs without totally mucking things up? Can I just delete the .dll's or is there a facility ti delete them? I understand that this may be a rather unrealistic question because the options are so great, but your experience has proven quite useful in the past, so...


2. For "two-computer people", doing a complete reformat and re-install of an OS probably makes the most sense. My question is two-fold: First, what OS do you recommend for NLE? I can install either W2K or WXP Pro. Second, when installing these OS's, what are your recommendations as to controlling what gets installed? By this, I mean when an OS like WXP Pro installs, a TON of "extras" are installed that I just simply won't use for video editing. What tips do you have concerning either preventing specific apps from installing in the first place or removing specific apps after a clean install. And related to that, what "extras" do you recommend NOT be installed?


Sorry to overwhelm you with these.


Thanks again for your input on this--it is invaluable! And if I am lucky, I may even get an NLE system that works like yours does!
 
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