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I don't understand the point unless he just wanted to cut back on TV-watching in general. The argument he made about DVR's being a 'short-term hack' is only valid if you think TV is going to be widely available on-demand over the internet in a few years. Maybe for some shows, but I don't think live sports will be. And certainly not in HD, the bandwidth for DSL and cable is not up to it on a wide scale. The future he's talking about will come, but why sacrifice the DVR and the freedom it entails in the meantime?
 

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the blog entry was a 'hack'


I don't believe he believes any of that which he said, at least not much.


At best he has just fallen out from watching tv and can no longer speak from the perspective of someone who does watch tv.


Even then I don't get it. I also watch almost no TV, and when I do the first thing I do is eagerly, meekly, perhaps desperately, set up some things to record so I don't have to deal with the toil of live TV, and that's about as close as I can to agreeing with him.


He's saying the 'guide' was the part he missed, and not the recording abilities? He said he evolved past the need to watch a TV series on his pvr to just wanting to watch whatever is live, then flipped around to say when the tv stations figured it out(and they would soon) he would then it would again make sense to watch a TV series?


To me he comes off as brownnosing/shilling (at least that is only conclusion I can see). Perhaps he comes off as choppy and false because he is not emotionally prepaired to sell out to his current/next desired job. I know, I'm a snotty cynic.


Big allegations I know, but his blog entry makes no sense at all.


Did anyone catch who he is now working for?


He did the GUI for the replaytv, fine, he did a fine job. I hope the hardware guys, and the low-level software guys don't feel like he does about this.


The way I see it, in a good network implimentation some kind of 'cache' should be located in the home. It just makes better bandwidth management sense, and always will no matter how much bandwidth there is (at min a few decades). It assures people can watch some tv if there is network problems. And people just emotionally need to know what they have. Would you feel good if having food in the house was dubbed obsolete, and to eat a bag of chips you made a call just assumed it would arrive a moment later? It's just akward.
 

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Thanks for linking to and reading my blog post.


slowbiscuit:

As I said in my blog post, I did this as an experiment. The ReplayTV failed, and I could have easily run out and got another DVR. But I decided not to, to go back to what it was like before DVRs, and re-experience what life was like. I was surprised by the results, which is why I wrote the blog post.


icecow:

My blog post is genuine, I meant every word of what I said, and I'm not shilling for any company. Not sure why you're so bent out of shape about what I wrote except for perhaps the term "hack". I didn't mean it as an insult. I am really proud of the work everyone did on ReplayTV and the contributions I made to the DVR as a concept. And I used my ReplayTV religiously for quite some time.


I'm not saying they DVRs are a flash in the pan, but I see them as a transition technology to go from scheduled to on-demand television. I assumed that since they've been around almost a decade that it would put my definition of "short-term" into perspective.


I never said I didn't miss recorded shows, only that the thing I missed most was the channel guide.


And yes, I'm trying to predict the future in my blog, which is always a sketchy thing to do; but it seems clear to me that at some point that every episode of every TV show will be available on legit services like iTunes, and available to watch on your TV via a box like AppleTV. This is already happening with a limited selection. But in the next 10 years the selection will grow radically. And that will change how the DVR factors into the living room.


Enjoy your DVRs! I never asked anyone not to! Thanks for reading.


~Hanford
 

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My post started out even worse, but upon re-reading it I saw it was unfounded and full of crap and I edited it down to that. It's still crap I'm sure (I'm afraid of re-reading it again).


I thought about all this again and believe I figured out my real contention, and was just about to come back to this thread to try to write about it. I can still do that now.


What really angered me about the blog entry is notion that on-demand is a godsend that solves all of our problems--I know the notion is not unique to you, but the mention of it set me off. It makes my skin peel. The quicker cable-owned on-demand comes, the harder it will be for the media servers, the slingboxes, et al. Cable-owned on-demand is just relinquishing the consumer as part of the network. It's just so wrong. The internet is 'on-demand' now, now if someone would just make some good internet appliances, and the ip providers would stop dragging their feet with the bandwidth we wouldn't have to give up our souls to cable companies.


Top down TV should go the way of the dodo IMO.


EDIT: I'm still jumping the gun. I didn't read his last paragraph about Apple TV. I'm completely hung up on the cable companies dominating on-demand thing.
 

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I feel bad now. My esteem has been so low lately merely learning someone actually read one of my posts is a guilt trip in itself.
And it looks my disgruntal/postal writing style lead you to edit your blog. ouch.


But enough self-whimpiness. I just re-read your blog entry, and to be perfectly frank it threw me for a loop again. Not the on-demand thing, back to the tv watching habits thing.


..and don't take this too seriously, I just have nothing better to do.


Recap: you don't watch recorded stuff, you don't show up to watch live appointment tv, you watch live tv only when you eat, and you wish you had a guide but you don't, and you don't channel surf. The only speculative picture I can logically draw in my head from this information is: when you eat you turn on the tv and watch whatever is on. When you are done eating you, perhaps (if you ever want to see more than one channel) turn to a random channel before turning it off; repeat. laugh with me.


And that doesn't sound like enlighted tv watching as a tv watcher would see it. It sounds like PVRs have evolved you to the point where you see TV as a complete waste of time, and TV is now a weak peripheral part of your life.
 

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Hey Icecow ... don't feel bad. When I was working on ReplayTV I was so passionate about it that I often got worked up. In fact I used to post in this very forum when it was just a single PVR forum for both TiVo and ReplayTV, before either company had shipped product! I know what it's like, and I think it's great that there are still passionate users.


I couldn't detail all my viewing habits in my blog post, I was just trying to summarize it. And I'm a crappy writer. That blog post sat written in my Drafts folder for a before I just decide to clean it up and post it. I do still watch TV. I most definitely stopped what I was doing to watch Planet Earth (although we missed a few episodes), although that was an exception. And when I do sit down to eat I fire up a channel guide on the web to see what's on. And when shows I like run back to back (like back-to-back episodes of Mythbusters, for example) I will watch all night. So I am still picky about what I watch and I do enjoy TV. When I had a DVR, that was my viewing style: I'd start watching TV when I was eating. That was what the DVR "trained" me to do. I was just surprised to see that when I lost the DVR, that I didn't go back to my previous ways.


This was an experiment for me. I really thought it would drive me crazy.


Regarding on-demand: I am just amazed at the speed of innovation happening on the Internet. It seems to outpace every other technological field. I simply don't see cable companies and satellite companies innovating at the same speed. So I truly believe that in the next 10 years most of us will be watching TV through the internet in the same way that most of us get our news from the web instead of newspapers. I don't see long-term bandwidth problems, or licensing problems holding it back for very long.


That's my take.
 

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As long as I'm stuck with two choices for broadband internet access, I see bandwidth problems - duopolies have little incentive to change. Wireless is not the answer for that and neither is powerline broadband.


So how am I going to watch an NFL game in HD over the internet again? I know what you're saying, but your definition of 'short-term' is a lot longer than mine.
 

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Well here's a for-instance: DSL in my area is maxed out at 6mbps (and you don't get that in reality). That's only 4 times what it was when it was first available, what, 8 years ago? Cable is max 8mbps and that's only 5 times as fast as when I got it 8 years ago. Meanwhile computers are way ahead in speed & capacity in the same interval (I'm too lazy to search but it's got to be 10 times easy).


Until we get real about broadband speeds and start deploying fiber to the home on a widespread basis (as some of the Asian countries are doing), I just don't see it. The speeds that I mentioned above have been maxed at that level for a couple of years now. I don't think cable has much if any headroom left until they deploy DOCSIS 3.0 (with new modems etc. which will take a while) and I haven't heard of anything new coming down to boost DSL. BPL and WiMax are always another year away and are bandwidth or latency limited as well.


Broadband speeds are not keeping pace with other advances in computer tech, so the throttle is going to be at your house for a long time. The order of magnitude increase you mentioned 10 years ago has gotten a lot smaller ever since we made the leap from dialup to broadband.
 

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Yeah, I hear ya. I think it's supply and demand. Demand for faster-than-what-is-avaliable broadband speeds just hasn't been there, because what's been there has been pretty good for a while. But video is just warming up, and I think we'll start to hear complaints about speeds again.


I am definitely making predictions here. But I can watch standard def better-than-NTSC quality video over 802.11b today. I know AVSforum readers are home theater buffs and HD is important to them; but there's a lot ot be said for selection. Selection can trump quality when converting people over to a new tech, as iTunes showed with less-the-CD-quality music for sale. And once iTunes starts showing big download numbers and big profits for video, the technology will follow the money and bandwidth will improve. And Apple won't be the only player forever. But this is just me thinking out loud ....
 

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I found myself somewhat in agreement with the blog. When I didn't have a replay available following a move, I simply stopped watching most tv - It was too hard to find a show when I wanted to watch TV (ie. the replay guide had spoiled me & watching comcast's TVguide channel was too much like work), AND the long commercial breaks were driving me crazy. More than once, I simply stopped watching the show in the middle.


My next step was "on demand" and watched mostly that for a while, but the 24 hour limit to pick the show back up was also too hard. More than once, I needed to start over and "slooooow forward" to the spot I stopped.


After I got my stuff back up and running, I realized that I had many, many hours (100s) of shows queued up for later viewing on my replaytvs and DVarchive, and dropped all but basic cable to maintain internet access. Now I'm watching the backlogged shows and have purchased some DVD series with the SUBSTANTIAL savings from the change in cable service. I may not go back after I watch all my saved shows.
 

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Herein is the answer to the "where did all the viewers go" question that piques the interest of the flotsam-stream media. The viewers have seen via their commercial-skipping DVRs through the tease of standard commercial tv that makes you think it's worth waiting through the commercial breaks for the rest of the program. We have largely come to realize how little of network tv is worth the wait, so we'll spend the money and effort to use some technology to get around the endless in-house promos and SUV or medicine ads - or just find something better to do.


It's revealing to observe the reaction of someone who watches the nightly news w/o commercials the first or second time. The usual reaction is, "that's it?"


Where's the beef? I think Mr. Lemoore came to this conclusion, evolved beyond the commercial-tv habit via the commercial-skipping ReplayTV, and is now immunized to the tube to the point where he can resume control of his free time on his terms - no more appointment tv. Going from a tube-aholic to a 'social viewer'. He can take a swig of network tv or leave it. I think his post is right on - I know his experience well-stated what I felt after I had my Replays a few months. Net effect is network tv will have to improve and the advertising model will evolve to support better tv. It's a good thing!
 

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I have to whole-heartedly disagree with the blog.


Just a couple of months ago my RTV5080 went Tango-Uniform. I almost went into a panic. In fact the only thing that kept me from panicking is that I had to keep my wife calm! (Thank you Mikeyboy for the new drive...) We watch much of our DVR stuff on the HD Cable box, but due to storage and time constraints we use our RTVs as backup and to watch SD versions when we can't or don't want to venture to the home theater.


We are both professionals with a baby and horrendous commutes. Our time is extremely valuable. If we want to use it watching TV we are sure to watch exactly what we want. We almost never watch live and on the rare occasion that we do start that way we usually end up pausing it! It is also comforting knowing that if/when we have to stop watching a show the rest is recorded for later use so we did not waste the last half hour watching a show of which we can't see the end.


When visiting relatives and friends that do not have DVRs it is almost painful to watch TV due to being chained to its time schedule and commercials. In fact I find myself wishing for DVR capabilities in my car radio when I miss something someone said or the baby is screaming!


As far as on-demand veiwing... I don't see that coming along quickly. I love technology and new gizmos, but I still don't use on-demand. It will take many years for the people already entrenched in the current tv-viewing system and far more technophobic than me to work their way through. I don't see DVRs as a stop-gap but a legitimate step and one that will be around for quite a while.


And before I relinquish my soap-box please allow me howl at the moon....


REPLAYTV PLEASE MAKE A NEW HARDWARE APPLIANCE THAT IS HD CAPABLE, DUAL TUNER, PREFERABLY CABLECARD, AND COMPATIBLE WITH YOUR LEGACY HARDWARE!!!
 

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mr lemoore, i didn't read your blog and i really don't care whether you want to watch tv or use a pvr or anything. it's your life, do what makes you happy. i just want to say thanks for helping develop one the greatest devices ever. i love my replay. but sadly, i also just cancelled my monthly subscription to it. too expensive, no hd and no further developement. how is it that motorola and others are making current dvr's so lacking in the basics that were included in software that is now 10 years old and hasn't been updated in near forever? i've moved to dish vip622. i love the hard drive, dual tuners, hd, etc. don't like the 8 day preview guide or herky jerky replay/ff/rew. why doesn't someone associated with the development of the original replay release their own software package to either put on home brew pvr's or come out with something equivalent to an HD replay?


anyone want to buy a 5508 in the next month or so?
 

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Well they did, and it's called ReplayTV PC Edition. But it doesn't do HD, or talk to existing Replays, or commercial skip, or internet sharing, or most of the other features that we took for granted with the existing RTV's. It's a bomb in other words. So you'll have to look somewhere else, those guys lost the mojo for the good fight.
 

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I will never stop using a DVR unless I can get on-demand commercial free for a low-price or Apple TV for a low price. I am not willing to pay the difference in price for CableTV compared to Sat. AppleTV wants $300 for the eqpt plus they want to charge me a lot per show and give me a small drive. No thanks. One thing AppleTV type of viewing can do is allow parents to choose what they want their kids to see and only that. No risque commercials or shows. And it solves the packages problem for those that don't care about the sports channels or others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Kennedy /forum/post/0


In fact I find myself wishing for DVR capabilities in my car radio when I miss something someone said or the baby is screaming!

I can't believe how often I go to hit the back button on my car radio, and realize there isn't one. I do it once or twice a week. I'm so hooked on the dvr concept, when will we have it incorporated into satellite radios? And then of course that would allow for commercial skipping too, what a blessing that would be.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbacke /forum/post/0


I can't believe how often I go to hit the back button on my car radio, and realize there isn't one. I do it once or twice a week. I'm so hooked on the dvr concept, when will we have it incorporated into satellite radios? And then of course that would allow for commercial skipping too, what a blessing that would be.

It's kinda out there already. Satellite radios don't have a replay button, but many have a rewind. At least on Sirius radios they do, can't speak for XM. Now, it's not on all satellite radio models, but even the $100 models can record 44 minutes worth of stuff. The more expensive ones can record specific songs, can be scheduled to record some shows on a schedule and hold MP3s. It's not quite a DVR for radio, but it's close.


No CA feature that I know of yet.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace987 /forum/post/0


It's kinda out there already. Satellite radios don't have a replay button, but many have a rewind. At least on Sirius radios they do, can't speak for XM. Now, it's not on all satellite radio models, but even the $100 models can record 44 minutes worth of stuff. The more expensive ones can record specific songs, can be scheduled to record some shows on a schedule and hold MP3s. It's not quite a DVR for radio, but it's close.


No CA feature that I know of yet.

XM and Sirius are too expensive.
 
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