[Texas Sage]

Two questions, but please, I am not trying to start a "religious" argument.

• 1. Has anyone here used TiVO in the past that is now using ReplayTV? Can you compare the ease of software use?
  
  2. With the 5000 series, does the progressive output make a difference compared to the composite or SVideo output?
  
  3. When do you think ReplayTV will be HDTV compatible?

Thank you in advance for any information you can give me.

 

[heathriel]

1. I own both. My Tivo is so user-friendly I can't figure it out and have often thrown the remote at the tv in frustration. I like to hit a button that does exactly what I want it to do rather than have to enter in cheat codes and then remember the proper easter eggs to get it done. Some people love Tivos. I, personally do not. But the only way to find out which you like better is to try them both out.


2. Yes.


3. They can currently record downgraded 480i just fine. However, to record true HDTV will be when there's an Mpeg compressor that can compress an hour HDTV program to 3GB, or when HDs get to be over 600GB.

 

[jberger]

Well, I'm fighting the urge to launch into a holy war over TiVo. . . so back to the original question.

What the heck is the progressive output for?

There doesn't seem to be any corresponding input (ie component, VGA, DVI, etc)

so what is it supposed to be used for?

The quality of the output should be limited to the input, so the lack of high quality inputs is leaving me puzzled. If it would record a 480P signal today, I'd seriously be checking it out. But right now, I'm just confused.


BTW:

MPEG is already a compressed format, that's why it's MPEG to start with. HDTV is a compressed signal, so you don't need 600GB hard drives to record it. That's how e* and DirecTV can transmit the signal, it's already encoded and compressed. What you need is a decoder and a high bandwidth connection to the display device. Everything in HDTV would be recorded in High Quality, because you could not economically decode then re-encode the HDTV bandwidth in real time on a set top unit. Sure the recorded program would take up more HD space, but not as much as you think.

 

[jameskollar]

To my untrained eyes, I much prefer the component outputs on the replay. The signal is improved by removing interlacing and going to progressive. For example, I swear I see less "jitter" when the picture is scanning across straight lines. In general, the picture just seems to much more stable. In addtion, the colors seem more vibrant than with either the composite or s-video outputs. I would rate the quality improvement as 20% better.


If only they could get rid of the green flashes that sometime occur on the component outputs I'd be really happy. (Doesn't happen on composite or S-video)


jmho

 

[nineball]

I did some tests with my parents Tivo and my Replay 5080 (before buying them one recently). Using the exact same source (Dish satellite) in the live mode I found that the Replay looked sharper using both S-Video and Progressive outputs.


The Progressive output on their HD ready display looked great. The only drawback is that when anything does macroblock you can really see the macroblock errros.


They have decided to keep their Tivo as well because they like the user interface better, but between the automatic commercial advance feature and the slightly higher quality video, they are now using the Replay on their main (HD ready big screen) display.

 

[joef_rgb]

I have not seen "green flashes" via component out on my 5040. Sounds as if you have a bad or loose cable, or might even be a flakey connection to the connector somewhere...

 

[jconawa]

You should really read this if your wondering about having "progressive" output. I would want to have it after reading this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html

 

[nineball]

regarding 'green flashes', I see them all the time on my 4000 series when I use the YPrPb output. I have not seen them once on the 5040 on YPrPb.


I am hoping that SonicBlue will do something in software in the future to fix this on the 4000 series, because I see those green grids which take up the lower 2/3 of screen often.

 

[jameskollar]

nineball: glad to hear (sorry to hear?) that you also have the green flashes. I have a 4080 and it's been there ever since I switched over to component 3 months after I bought the unit (took me a while to get the damn cable). Guess that's what I get for buying first generation hardware. :-(

 

[MinnesotaJim]

Quote:

Originally posted by jberger MPEG is already a compressed format, that's why it's MPEG to start with. HDTV is a compressed signal, so you don't need 600GB hard drives to record it.

That is correct, although the storage required is fairly significant; here are some numbers for anyone who is interested:

1080i - Up to 18 Mbps, which is 2.25 MB/second. One hour of video would require up to 8.1GB of storage.
720p - Up to 16 Mbps, which is 2 MB/second. One hour of video would require up to 7.2GB of storage.
480i - Around 5 Mbps, which is 0.6 MB/second. One hour of video would require around 2.1GB of storage.


However, these numbers can be much less depending on what's going on at any time. Fast-action things such as sports use much more bandwidth than talking-heads shows; the HDTV bandwidth usage can drop by half in such cases.


Anyway, a current-generation 80-hour ReplayTV (such as the 4508) with its 80GB hard drive has enough storage to record only about 10 (ten) hours of OTA HDTV signals or 40 (forty) hours of OTA SDTV signals.


This all means a theoretical ReplayHDTV 6080 would indeed require 640GB of storage (and could probably be sold for around $800 or $900 today). There would actually be considerably less complexity than with the current ReplayTVs, since there is no digitizing or MPEG-encoding circuitry required. And it would also be easy to make it record two HDTV signals at once, just requiring a second $5 tuner. But I'm not surprised that such a beast has not yet made it to market, since HDTV has not really "caught on" yet with the public (or even the PVR-buying public).


I still would like to see a PVR with 640TB of storage that would record the entire spectrum (say 100 HDTV channels) simultaneously. That would be sweet, and would give you access to a full month's worth of programming on every network. At today's prices, it would only cost around half a million dollars, give or take.


Jim

 

[ianken]

Quote:

Originally posted by jconawa You should really read this if your wondering about having "progressive" output. I would want to have it after reading this: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html

Esxcept the Replay units do not do inverse telecine on film based material (most prime time programming). So their progressive output is generated by a line doubler that is inferior to every shipping unit in any modern HD ready set.


I would prefer that they allowed 480i component output so I could feed it to a line douvler or video processor that does not suck.

 

[ianken]

Quote:

Originally posted by jconawa You should really read this if your wondering about having "progressive" output. I would want to have it after reading this: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html

Except the Replay units do not do inverse telecine on film based material (most prime time programming). So their progressive output is generated by a line doubler that is inferior to every shipping unit in any modern HD ready set.


I would prefer that they allowed 480i component output so I could feed it to a line doubler or video processor that does not suck. Their cheesy filtered bob deinterlace does not cut it.

 

[ianken]

Quote:

Originally posted by MinnesotaJim However, these numbers can be much less depending on what's going on at any time. [/b]

Not with ATSC OTA. The trasnport stream is loccked to 19.2 MPBS and if there is not enough MPEG2 data then it is filled with NULL packets. A smart DVR could strip out the NULL packets I guess and remux the stransport stram but that would add to the cost of the DVR.

 

[MinnesotaJim]

Quote:

Originally posted by ianken Not with ATSC OTA. The trasnport stream is loccked to 19.2 MPBS and if there is not enough MPEG2 data then it is filled with NULL packets. A smart DVR could strip out the NULL packets I guess and remux the stransport stram but that would add to the cost of the DVR.

Veering off topic, but... Actually, it's trivially done in software, for free; it simply strips out the NULL packets before saving to disk but tags their locations, and then during playback before sending to the decoder it adds NULL packets back in at the same points. (An entire NULL packet can thus be stored using one byte or less.) Only the non-NULL packets need be stored normally. There's no need to "remux" or do any other complicated magic on the stream, and the software is trivial to implement.


Jim

 

[jconawa]

Quote:

Originally posted by ianken Esxcept the Replay units do not do inverse telecine on film based material (most prime time programming). So their progressive output is generated by a line doubler that is inferior to every shipping unit in any modern HD ready set. I would prefer that they allowed 480i component output so I could feed it to a line douvler or video processor that does not suck.

Why not take the standard NTSC (video out[480i]) which is what all HD ready sets will also accept and should run through the TV line doubler. I thought the new chips in the Replay MPEG decoder (plus 480p) are an improved algorithm comparable to the best DVD decoders available today.

 

[themarshall]

I'd personally like to hear from someone with a 4000 series that has an HDTV and has tried the VGA/Progessive out on it. Was the picture better? I'm guessing my new Grand Wega will handle upconverting the 480i signal passed to it from the Replay and do a better job than the Replay trying to upconvert and pass 480p(?) Can someone please confirm this though?

 

[nineball]

Hi Themarshall,


I tested a Replay 4080 with both RGB out and Progressive out and compared it to S-Video.


I found that the RGB/Progressive video output is noticeably sharper than S-Video. I did, however, also notice that the internal line doubler is not as good as some HD displays'.


When I use S-video on my projector, the display line doubler is better. When I checked it on an older Mitsubishi HD ready set, the Replay line double did a better job.


I prefer the sharpness, so I am using the RGB outputs now.


I think the ideal solution would be if Replay could release software which would allow users to select between component (YCrCb interlaced) or Progressive. If they did this I would use component video out and use my projector's internal line doubler.

 

[themarshall]

Nineball,

Thanks for responding, good to hear someone has seen improvement. I'm tempted to try it, as I'm seeing a fair amount of pixelation when I watch TV through the Replay vs. direct Coax into the Tv. As for a cable, what/where did you buy? I'm tempted to try it, but if it's going to cost $100 or more I think I'll pass.


Thanks again, I love all the great people on this forum and the information shared here is just invaluable.

 

[KenL]

Quote:

Originally posted by themarshall ...I'm tempted to try it, as I'm seeing a fair amount of pixelation...

Try it both ways to see which looks best with your setup.


However using progressive out will probably not help a pixelation problem. If anything the "sharper" picture may look worse. To minimize pixilation, work for a less compressed input source and/or less noisy signal... and try to record with a higher bitrate.


But certainly take a look @ the progressive out to see how it looks with your display.