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This is hilarios and desperate.
http://news.com.com/2060-10805_3-0.html?tag=nefd.bl


Microsoft is offering cash incentives called coupons to computer makers that sell personal computers with HD-DVD drives, a next-generation DVD format the software behemoth is supporting over rival Blu-ray disk, Electronic Engineering Times reported Monday.


Microsoft declined to comment in the EE Times report, which cited as evidence of Microsoft's success Hewlett-Packard's decision to back HD-DVD as well where it previously exclusively supported Blu-ray. An HP executive also said Microsoft's forthcoming Vista version of Windows will include HD-DVD support for free, whereas PC makers must pay about $30 per drive in Blu-ray royalties.


In September, Microsoft and Intel raised the profile of the battle between HD-DVD and Blu-ray when they announced they badked HD-DVD. Both drive types offer higher capacities than current DVDs, making it possible to record high-definition video, and both types of drives are expected to debut in 2006.
 

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What's the difference between cash incentives and Sony subsizing BD-ROM production? Or tossing in support BD+ and BD-9 to woo studios.


No holds barred in this war. We're playing right on up to the legal limit.
 

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What's the difference between cash incentives and Sony subsizing BD-ROM production?
nothing much, but there is a big difference in effect.

assuming both are true, I will enjoy TW/Paramount movies on my BR so even though it is not important why they changed and went neutral it does affect the outcome (I am not stuck with HD-DVD or DVD I will enjoy BR). On the other hand since I am not going to buy an HP machine MS subsidizing HP does not help me, and if the only reason they changed is the subsidy their decision is irrelevant to me.

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Or tossing in support BD+ and BD-9 to woo studios.
I don't see how that is remotely the same. That is giving a customer the features they want. That is why there are all these discussions and meetings to find out and create a standard for features.
 

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Originally Posted by paintit77
Microsoft is offering cash incentives called coupons to computer makers that sell personal computers with HD-DVD drives, a next-generation DVD format the software behemoth is supporting over rival Blu-ray disk, Electronic Engineering Times reported Monday.
It should be noted that this is not what the EETimes article said, as I pointed out in the gigantic (dead or alive) thread.


The EETimes article said this:

There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives — in the form "coupons" — to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD.


Here is the link: Fate of high-def DVD may lie with Microsoft


As to whether MS is providing rebates, who knows? But the CNET article appears to be taking some liberties here.
 

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nothing much, but there is a big difference in effect.
Huh? You have just contradicted the first part of your sentence with the latter

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I don't see how that is remotely the same. That is giving a customer the features they want. That is why there are all these discussions and meetings to find out and create a standard for features.
The end game is the same Anthony. Whether I give you cash incentives or capitulate to your terms for support I've subsidized you in a way. If you cannot see how these two things are related then please enroll into Logic 101 at your local college post haste.
 

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into Logic 101 at your local college post haste.
unlike you, I don't need it, I have a minor in Philosophy and took not only 100 level logic courses but also 300 level courses in logic at university.


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if you can't distinguish between the roles of companies then it is not my fault. The studios are the customers of either format, and to use an old expression the customer is king. MS is not a customer but a potential supplier in this case, the BDA decide to buy someone else’s product (BD-J) and MS is crying and trying to force them to buy their product.


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Huh? You have just contradicted the first part of your sentence with the latter
no, the second part was qualified. Like I said, in many ways there is no difference. And from your post I gather the difference you were looking for was either ethical (is it more right for Sony to subsidize the PS3 then MS to subsidize HP) and to that my opinion is no, I don't think there is anything wrong with either. But if the question was strategically what is more important then I think the PS3 is a MUCH better move and will have a MUCH bigger effect on the outcome of the war. So the effect might be BIG but the difference is minute.


Or let me try it differently what is the difference between holding someone head X sec under water or X+1 under water. From the simple difference it is 1 second, on the other hand the effect could be life and death. What is the difference between you making Y$ a year or Y+1$ a year, the difference is 1$, but if that 1$ brings you to a higher tax bracket then Y+1$ might actually be bad for you.
 

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Hmmmmmmmmm perhaps we're on the same page and wires got crossed. I don't see a difference between a cash incentive vs modifying a format to appease a studio.


Yet people make it sounds like Microsoft is buying their support and Sony isn't.
 

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Because it "looks" like it, even though both are very very similar. One "looks" shadier to some people.
 

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Yet people make it sounds like Microsoft is buying their support and Sony isn't.
I think part of it is that there is not much to say on the others. If Sony put a price cap on BR and that is why Paramount and TW decided to support BR it is not interesting and I think we can all agree that price is a valid reason to pick or not to pick something. On the other hand the second HP went neutral there was a bunch of HD-DVD supporters that started their "You see BR sucks and now that HP has all the info they know it and backed out of the war, and you are idiots to still think BR has any advantages it is all BR PR and BS" (just paraphrasing the just of it). But if the only reason HP went neutral is that MS told them we will give a discount, then it invalidates to someone that won't buy an HP PC any advantage MS brought to the table with this, all it means is MS bought HPs neutrality and it is not a real reason.


In other words everything HP said after the talk becomes tainted the same way that an actor saying "I like X better" in an advertisement (i.e. can't be sure if it is the check or a real evaluation that made them take that position)


On the other hand for the studios, it is not as important why they picked a format, in the end I want to buy movies for every studio because they all have some good movies. So even if the only reason any studio picked BR was a price guarantee of Sony, does it matter?
 

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Originally Posted by hmurchison
Hmmmmmmmmm perhaps we're on the same page and wires got crossed. I don't see a difference between a cash incentive vs modifying a format to appease a studio.


Yet people make it sounds like Microsoft is buying their support and Sony isn't.
If a customer says I won't buy your product unless you add a tin foil hat and you comply that is very different than you saying I'll give you a tin foil hat and $5 if you buy only my product, hold a press conference and tell the world how you were nearly misled into making the biggest mistake in the entire history of your company (since hiring Ms Fiona) by buying a different product.


You see no difference?
 

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No... and maybe this is the future attorney in me.


In both cases here we have a clearly defined Quid Pro Quo situation. Both parties get something.


Sony offering to add BD-9 appeases Warner and whoever else may have requested the feature. It's a cost to Sony but the benefit of securing Warner was worth it.


Microsoft says they have plans to incentivize vendors who support HD DVD benefits them and well as the vendor.


The only difference is one is a monetary benefit versus non-monetary. In both cases mutual consideration has been made.


If you seek to look at this from a more granular level then sure there are differences but in the end it's the same. " Something for Something"
 

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Originally Posted by hmurchison
No... and maybe this is the future attorney in me.


In both cases here we have a clearly defined Quid Pro Quo situation. Both parties get something.


Sony offering to add BD-9 appeases Warner and whoever else may have requested the feature. It's a cost to Sony but the benefit of securing Warner was worth it.


Microsoft says they have plans to incentivize vendors who support HD DVD benefits them and well as the vendor.


The only difference is one is a monetary benefit versus non-monetary. In both cases mutual consideration has been made.


If you seek to look at this from a more granular level then sure there are differences but in the end it's the same. " Something for Something"
All I can say to your explanation is WOW! I want you as my attorney the next time I kidnap someone and hold them for ransom. I can see you now, tap dancing on the judge's podium with a top hat and cane singing " Quid Pro Quo" your honor. He only wanted a contract with "consideration". :)
 

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Actually, if I remember my business law class correctly, both Sony and MS are doing the same thing, as long as the consumer isn't getting the offer directly. I think both companies have to use a monetary value when reporting it though. Any full time lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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Originally Posted by Paul_Seng
Actually, if I remember my business law class correctly, both Sony and MS are doing the same thing, as long as the consumer isn't getting the offer directly. I think both companies have to use a monetary value when reporting it though. Any full time lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong.
Thank you Paul. Sheesh I can't see why this concept is hard for some to grok. Either the compensation is monetary or not. But there is compensation happening in both camps regardless. And Jimbo you won't be able to afford me buddy :D
 

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Originally Posted by hmurchison
What's the difference between cash incentives and Sony subsizing BD-ROM production? Or tossing in support BD+ and BD-9 to woo studios.


No holds barred in this war. We're playing right on up to the legal limit.
There is a big difference. I'm sure Microsoft coupons are not being offered on non-Windows machines. That might violate the anti-trust decision. Someone with more legal knowledge would need to answer this.



Doug
 

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Originally Posted by hmurchison
And Jimbo you won't be able to afford me buddy :D


Just a warning, everytime I've seen this response from a would-be attorney they end up behind a fast food counter asking me if I'd like fries with my burger. :cool:
 

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:rolleyes: Jimbo, that's fine. Just wondering what you would say if an attorney posted the same what I did? Would you just let it go or quesiton him also?
 

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Originally Posted by Paul_Seng
:rolleyes: Jimbo, that's fine. Just wondering what you would say if an attorney posted the same what I did? Would you just let it go or quesiton him also?
I don't believe that will happen Paul, I would expect a practicing attorney to know better. I took my share of business law classes as well and my interpretation differs greatly from yours. I doubt we'll ever know for sure unless the NY AG runs out of other companies to charge. If that happens MS had better watch out IMHO.

A Relevant Legal Ruling
 

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Originally Posted by Jimbo Moran
All I can say to your explanation is WOW! I want you as my attorney the next time I kidnap someone and hold them for ransom. I can see you now, tap dancing on the judge's podium with a top hat and cane singing " Quid Pro Quo" your honor. He only wanted a contract with "consideration". :)
Kidnap is illegal ... so contract is null & void. Or so my now rusty business law says ;)
 

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Microsoft doesn't really care about HD-DVD. It wants to render another proprietary Sony device useless in it's quest to have all forms of digital entertainment streamed on demand with copy encryption in place.


Sony on the other hand is making the same mistake they have with Betamax, Memory Stick, eVilla, HiFD, Minidisc, ATRAC 3 Music Player, PSX, and UMD next. First of all the format is complete overkill. And the cost of production will kill it alone. At least HD-DVD is a realistic next step and production of media would remain low. I am sure all the techno/audio/videophiles on these boards drool over Blu-Ray specs and Java apps. I do too, but is it really logical it will catch on when:
  • 1. Less than 10% of Americans have an HD capable set.
  • 2. Less than 1% of those capable sets have HDMI input (required for Blu-Ray)
  • 3. The player is estimated at $500 to $1000
  • 4. The media will cost double what DVD's are.
  • 5. Most people can't tell a difference between HD and DVD anyway.

This is all overkill. Neither one of these companies is looking at what is good for the consumers andwhat is good for business and competition. Sony and Microsoft are in a war of ego's in a world of who's is bigger. In the end it's the little guy that gets the shaft.


I personally will just continue to copy HBO HD in D-Theater and enjoy at my own leisure.
 
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