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An equilateral triangle, if possible:
Whatever the distance is between the mains should be the distance from the main listening position to the the midpoint of the mains.

I don't quite have that for my Salon 2's but it's pretty close.
Nor do I, not close, but I have to live with it. I am curious about the equilateral triangle. How often are you at a live event where the music sources and you make such a thing?

People talk about stereo imaging and soundstage when recordings are a forest of microphones mixed to achieve a desired effect. At live events the reflected sound off the proscenium, ceiling, or stage surrounds result in sounds apparently coming from much different locations than the players. And, unless you are close, minimal stereo effect. And when you are close there may be strong echoes off the loge and balcony faces if such exist.

Switching subjects do Salon 2 owners here listen with or without the grills? Has Revel said anything on this subject?
 

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Nor do I, not close, but I have to live with it. I am curious about the equilateral triangle. How often are you at a live event where the music sources and you make such a thing?

People talk about stereo imaging and soundstage when recordings are a forest of microphones mixed to achieve a desired effect. At live events the reflected sound off the proscenium, ceiling, or stage surrounds result in sounds apparently coming from much different locations than the players. And, unless you are close, minimal stereo effect. And when you are close there may be strong echoes off the loge and balcony faces if such exist.

Switching subjects do Salon 2 owners here listen with or without the grills? Has Revel said anything on this subject?
Live concerts, at least ones I attend are rarely a benchmark for fidelity. I asked simply because I fiddle with seating placement and want to move closer (as close as 5 feet). And although I know equilateral triangle is a common practice, that doesn't really help me much, since I can make it at 1 feet or at 15 feet, and I highly doubt that drivers converge properly at 1 feet distance.

Speaking of grille I hear no difference. I tried once putting some other fabric right in front of a tweeter while music was playing and I heard the difference right away. Putting/removing grille doesn't do that.
 

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Live concerts, at least ones I attend are rarely a benchmark for fidelity.
Agreed

I asked simply because I fiddle with seating placement and want to move closer (as close as 5 feet). And although I know equilateral triangle is a common practice, that doesn't really help me much, since I can make it at 1 feet or at 15 feet, and I highly doubt that drivers converge properly at 1 feet distance.


It sounds like I have fewer options than you do. I can only move my mains away from the back wall but not any closer together since I have two displays. (see attached pic). I have two large couches that are definitely not moving closer or further. The manual says to remove all objects between the speakers and the main listening position. I have a coffee table in between but I aint moving that either.:p

I still have been told that my room sounds 'very lively", whatever that means. I'm sure the Revels have something to do with that...
 

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It sounds like I have fewer options than you do. I can only move my mains away from the back wall but not any closer together since I have two displays. (see attached pic). I have two large couches that are definitely not moving closer or further. The manual says to remove all objects between the speakers and the main listening position. I have a coffee table in between but I aint moving that either.:p

I still have been told that my room sounds 'very lively", whatever that means. I'm sure the Revels have something to do with that...
Not really. Although i can sit as far as 13 feet back, its not really a great option because of back wall. 5 to 9 feet is much more viable option.
Your room is "lively" mostly because of first reflections (that floor might need a rug for example)

P.S. Hehe, on your picture Salons actually seem really small because of way you have set everything up :D
 

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For the new Revel speaker S16 on-wall, has anyone heard them? How do they compare to their in-wall/in-ceiling speakers. I have their in-wall speakers, the 500 series that sound really nice. I am thinking of buying the W760 in-wall to replace some NHT speakers but if the S16 is significantly better, I may just use that instead of the in-wall.

John Schuermann, do you have any contacts at Revel that can shed their opinion on the in-walls vs. their new Concerta2 speakers?

Thanks.
Sorry it took so long for me to post this here (been really busy, things are settling down), but here is a direct response from someone at Harman who should know:

The in wall would certainly go lower--as long as it's not used with a fire box. Imaging would be in favor of the surface mount in every case. So I would say S16 with a sub, W763 without.
 

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Tough to answer but I'm guessing an F208 driven with a receiver falls in the minority.

It really goes without saying that it's common knowledge - using a separate power amp and other quality associated equipment is needed to maximize the sound quality of the F208 or any quality set of speakers.

But I'd rather have a $5000 speaker being driven by $2000 in electronics vs. the other way around.
Totally agree with your last sentence!

I will post what the actual Revel product managers and engineers think here in a separate post :)
 

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Has anyone used the Performa3 M105 for Dolby Atmos height speakers? If so, how did you mount them and point down at the seating position? Can you use the 3 screw holes in the bottom? In ceiling is not an option for me.
I asked this question about using Revel M16s as on ceilings for heights (customer with same issue). Some feedback:

Revel will not take any responsibility for what might happen if you mount a 16 lb. speaker designed to be stand or bookshelf mounted to the ceiling. Same for me, lol.

If you were going to do it, you would probably want to go into a joist AND use a speaker mount specifically designed to handle the weight and the fact that the center of balance would be way off (if you use the mounting holes in the bottom). Then you would have the challenge of then somehow getting the speaker to fire downward at your listening position. Doesn't seem very practicable.

With the M16s it was suggested pulling the woofer out and screwing directly through the back of the speaker into the joist, and then combining that with the screw bracket already included with the speaker (so it would be double braced).

Other options would be the JBL SCS or 8320 / 8350 series. Same company DNA, and they are designed for on-ceiling mounting. Not the prettiest things, though!
 

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Thoughts on using an AVR vs. separates, based on my conversations with those at Harman / Revel that study such things:

As @duc135 said:

There is nothing vague about "properly designed". Properly designed means the output frequency response is as flat as possible, S/N ratio is beyond audible thresholds, etc. Amplifiers should not color the sound in any way. They're only function is to amplify (hence their name) the incoming signal. Anything other than amplifying the signal then it is considered a processor.

duc135 will get no argument from most of the good folks at Revel. The general stance is that well designed / properly designed electronics are neutral, by that same definition. However, they do think that most receivers these days are pretty seriously underpowered, with very little headroom. They do recommend more and more power as you go up the Revel line-up, as each step up the Revel speaker ladder presents more and more of a difficult load to the amp. For the Performas, for example, I was told that a respectable system should deliver at least 150 watts continuous with considerably more power than that in reserve for peaks. Many AVRs just don't have that kind of output capability, especially when they are trying to drive 7 to 9 channels at once!

So, the overall thinking at Revel is that a separate amp is not necessarily going to sound any better than an AVR until you push the amp to its limits, where the amplifier starts clipping. Generally speaking, a garden variety AVR is going to start clipping well before a properly designed and beefy separate amp. Here is a direct quote from someone at Revel directly addressing this question:

I certainly believe in “the more power, the better,” since IMO, the biggest difference between amps is whether or not they are clipping (even before it is perceived as clipping).

So, in this case, I would say that both duc135 AND Isdec are correct :)
 

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Thanks for the info John!

There are so many factors in a well designed amp, class A, A/B, D, H etc. tortoidal or switching power supply, fully balanced or not etc etc, that I find it hard to believe that in this day and age that a properly designed low priced multi-channel amp with a switching power supply will sound identical to a properly designed $30k, fully balanced Pass Labs monoblocks.

I'm not talking in a land where there are unicorns, bc in that world maybe all speakers will sound identical as they will produce a perfectly flat frequency response.

Staying in the real world, the very reason why people buy a high powered amp is that when you crank up the volume to realistic levels, the sound just gets louder with no change in sound quality. This is not a little side benefit, it's the main reason for getting a quality power amp.

Not to mention the other side where a quality pre/pro will exceed the preamp section of a receiver often by a wide margin.

I'm sure not too many of your customers will be using a receiver for the salon2 or that same receiver used as a preamp and add a power amp. They most likely will use a high end prepro combined with a high end power amp.

I'm not talking about some new concept here. Most folks who truly care about ultimate sound quality will have a proper audition before selecting the loudspeaker that best matches their tastes. Then they will make sure they pair the expensive a$$ speaker with the necessary components to have as little degradation as possible feeding the speaker. This is important because the laws of diminishing returns hits fast and hard in high end audio. Most of those folks are talking minute differences as worthwhile upgrades. Why would they spoil the sound of this expensive speaker with a less than optimal sounding receiver?

Now, if someone wants to use a pretty nice receiver with the Salon2, what do I care? I won't be listening to their system - don't even know em..please don't worry about my comments.

But to the person asking about amps, I was only speaking the basic generally accepted methods which to me equal common knowledge to folks who invest this much money in audio gear. Yes, to my wife who thinks buying an under-counter clock radio for $79 is spurging, I don't expect her to know what I'm saying as common knowledge.

That was my point and it was a simple one that was really stating some obvious things.
 

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Back on the topic of speaker placement, my Salon 2's are almost 9 feet apart right now.

But my main display on the right has just developed a horizontal line and will need to be replaced. :mad: Both displays are 55" but I am considering upgrading the right display to 65". To keep the display at eye level, the right main would be in the way. I was thinking of swapping positions of my sub & right main which would eliminate the blocking the view of the screen. But this would add another 2-3 feet distance between the mains. My seated position is about 12 feet so I would stay close to the equilateral triangle. But I'm not crazy about spreading the mains apart further. I could just get another 55" display and keep things as is.

How far apart have some of you had your Salon 2's?
 

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Back on the topic of speaker placement, my Salon 2's are almost 9 feet apart right now.

But my main display on the right has just developed a horizontal line and will need to be replaced. :mad: Both displays are 55" but I am considering upgrading the right display to 65". To keep the display at eye level, the right main would be in the way. I was thinking of swapping positions of my sub & right main which would eliminate the blocking the view of the screen. But this would add another 2-3 feet distance between the mains. My seated position is about 12 feet so I would stay close to the equilateral triangle. But I'm not crazy about spreading the mains apart further. I could just get another 55" display and keep things as is.

How far apart have some of you had your Salon 2's?

Display
I am not sure I get the two display thing, but if I were going to buy a new 65" display, I would check out the new LG OLED 4K UHD.


Distance
My Salon2s are about 10 feet apart and by seating position is about 12 feet from them. When comparing amps and sources, I usually sit between them 8 feet from them. The image is amazing. There is a smaller sweet spot the closer you get.


Speaker budgeting
On the other topic, I find improvements start at the speakers. If my budget allowed for Salon2's and a $500 receiver, I would do it in a heartbeat and ugrade the rest of the system later.


Amplification
I have observed differences in amplifiers when level matched with a volt meter.
Amps are not typically measured driving reactive loads with widely varying impedance loads.
Amplifier non-linearity and distortion driving speaker load can vary. Non-linearity is not traditionally considered distortion, although, I would argue that it is a form of distortion.


- Rich
 

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How do you level match with a volt meter?
Start with your AVR/processor at some reasonable level, for me, -30.
Play pure tones, from wav, disk, DAC, REW generated, etc.
I used several, 50Hz, 400Hz, 1kHz. It should not matter which. 400Hz is easier on the ears.


Put a voltmeter on the speaker terminals and measure the voltage.
Try the other amp, adjust the volume to get the voltages as close as posible.


- Rich
 

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Thanks John for getting back with the in-walls and the new Concerta2s.

The more I hear what Revel staff say to you and you talk about in your posts, I totally agree with them.

I've always thought all amplifiers were the same, as long as it wasn't clipping. Although I realize not all receivers and amplifiers actually can give out their stated watts. This may not matter if you are listening at low volumes.

Same thing with speaker burn-in. I'm more inclined to believe people just get accustomed to the sound. I know I have when I compared my NHT to Revel. The more I listen to one, the more I get used to it and think it is awesome. Same with my car speakers. That's one of the nice things about Revel speakers. As soon as I heard them, I was attracted to the sound.
 

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With regards to displays, I'd think getting a 75" tv as the main and putting the 55" above it as a secondary source might look good.

Just a thought. Not sure though.
 

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With regards to displays, I'd think getting a 75" tv as the main and putting the 55" above it as a secondary source might look good.

Just a thought. Not sure though.
This was suggested by a custom installer and I'm weighing my options. Of course that would allow me to bring the mains in closer.

Thanks
 

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I must have missed the class or clause that stated I needed a separate power amp to maximize SQ in my Salon2s. I happily had them powered off my Denon AVR until I implemented more speaker channels than it had amp channels. When I switched to external amplification there was no change in SQ. There was no lifting of veils, expansion of soundstage or any other colorful phrases people like to use. My brother-in-law uses the same Denon AVR with his F208s with no complaints either.
Agreed, amps do nothing for sound quality. I had an XPA-3, and without it there was zero difference.. So I sold it. Haven't missed it for a second. My Onkyo 818 drives my ML EM ESL's great..
 

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There are so many factors in a well designed amp, class A, A/B, D, H etc. tortoidal or switching power supply, fully balanced or not etc etc, that I find it hard to believe that in this day and age that a properly designed low priced multi-channel amp with a switching power supply will sound identical to a properly designed $30k, fully balanced Pass Labs monoblocks.

I'm not talking in a land where there are unicorns, bc in that world maybe all speakers will sound identical as they will produce a perfectly flat frequency response.

Staying in the real world, the very reason why people buy a high powered amp is that when you crank up the volume to realistic levels, the sound just gets louder with no change in sound quality. This is not a little side benefit, it's the main reason for getting a quality power amp.

Not to mention the other side where a quality pre/pro will exceed the preamp section of a receiver often by a wide margin.

I'm sure not too many of your customers will be using a receiver for the salon2 or that same receiver used as a preamp and add a power amp. They most likely will use a high end prepro combined with a high end power amp.

I'm not talking about some new concept here. Most folks who truly care about ultimate sound quality will have a proper audition before selecting the loudspeaker that best matches their tastes. Then they will make sure they pair the expensive a$$ speaker with the necessary components to have as little degradation as possible feeding the speaker. This is important because the laws of diminishing returns hits fast and hard in high end audio. Most of those folks are talking minute differences as worthwhile upgrades. Why would they spoil the sound of this expensive speaker with a less than optimal sounding receiver?

Now, if someone wants to use a pretty nice receiver with the Salon2, what do I care? I won't be listening to their system - don't even know em..please don't worry about my comments.

But to the person asking about amps, I was only speaking the basic generally accepted methods which to me equal common knowledge to folks who invest this much money in audio gear. Yes, to my wife who thinks buying an under-counter clock radio for $79 is spurging, I don't expect her to know what I'm saying as common knowledge.

That was my point and it was a simple one that was really stating some obvious things.
It not that difficult to believe that a properly designed $$$ amp can equal the performance of a $$$$$ amp of equal power rating in this day and age. Remember, I say properly designed amp. In the early days of audio electronics yes, you did need to spend a lot more money to get high quality components. I won't deny that. But in the world of electronics, as science, engineering and manufacturing processes mature, the performance gap between high end and low end will narrow. In this day and age, audio electronics are at the point that properly designed amps will sound the same no matter the cost. You may get better build quality or other nice features, but they will sound the same when used within their specified ratings.

If human hearing can only discern >0.01% distortion, why would you pay 10x the cost to get an amp that has 0.0001% distortion over a much cheaper one that has a whopping 0.001% distortion? Don't quote me on those numbers. I'm just throwing out random values just to make a point. Modern electronics performance has far exceeded what the human ear can detect. I'm guessing all these old, outdated beliefs of having to pay $$$$$ for quality audio electronics (which I'll admit, was true at one point) are still being perpetuated by the high end audio manufacturers to keep the money rolling in. There are many other possible reasons, but none based on audible measurements.
 

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In the early days of audio when things were analog and early days of digital yes the differences were much greater than they are today.

Things are much closer than they used to be no question and I don't dispute any of those points.

My points is not all amps sound the same even considering that they were "properly designed". Can you name some major brands whose amps were improperly designed? I for one have no idea.

The normal operating range comment is a cop out imho...it's like saying a moped is just as good as a Kawasaki Ninja within its operating range - that is under 40 mph, it'll get you from point A to point B at the same time if you accelerate at the same rate.

You pay for performance. The receivers that output 30 watts all channels driven do not get a pass by qualifying that the sound quality is the same as a 1000 watt monoblock using the preout from the same receiver given that we keep the volume where no more than 10 watts RMS is used.

No question the gap has been narrowed but there is still a substantial range from low end to mid-fi to high end audio.

The ones that can't hear the difference are actually pretty lucky and they don't have to spend more since they can't hear the difference anyway.

I think we had the same amps. I currently have the XPR-2 and XPR-5. The XPR-2 and 5 to me made things sound a lot more realistic than the XPA-2 and 5 I had prior.

Trains passing sound more real in movies. Kick drums sound like they have more impact. Most importantly, the highs don't sound etched or "electronic" vs the lower line amps.

And prior to this when I just had the Onkyo 708, music was pretty much unlistenable - it was funny that it had a pure audio mode bc it didn't make much difference. It's when I got the XPA-5, I saw a jump in quality then with the pre-pro and getting rid of the receiver all together, there was another jump and so on and so on.

I feel balance is the best approach to round out your system.
 
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