It's a great question! I began with the F228Be as my speaker of choice from Revel. When it came time to purchase, I decided I didn't want to leave anything on the table. After falling out of love with my Martin Logans, I wanted to buy speakers that wouldn't leave any questions in my mind for the next decade or longer. I never wanted to sit listening to the F228Be or even the Studio 2 and think to myself, "I wonder how much better the Salon 2 is?"
Now, I'll never have to wonder.
NullTest said: "If timbre accuracy is the most valuable aspect in designing loudspeakers, won't an amplifier with a sonic signature deny precisely that when double blinding test them?"Dear Dr. Toole,
I didn't know who you were until I've come across this very insightful video: Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts
And you know what? I've immediately liked you... but since it was a sighted evaluation I might be biased , unless there was a very solid scientific reasoning behind the words I was listening to. And, there was! So, I've thought to myself, here's a brilliant man who values music reproduction accuracy above everything else and whose work of a life time was dedicated to achieve just that from loudspeakers and yet he is about to missthe MOST important fact regarding what drives them, which will for sure compromise his work, as those double blinding tests will be rendered impaired!
Here I am in your rescue Dr. Toole!
How could you possibly have disregarded the only single measurement that can tell you, flawless, how accurate an amplifier is, with or without a real loudspeaker load, and then double blinding test it?
I mean, why didn't you sir, go to the same great lengths to NULL TEST the amplifiers you have been using throughout the years? What comes in, must come out - the proverbial wire with gain!
If timbre accuracy is the most valuable aspect in designing loudspeakers, won't an amplifier with a sonic signature deny precisely that when double blinding test them?
There is of course nothing wrong with a null test, but one would need to run it for every loudspeaker load at every power level to be exhaustive. Fortunately, when amplifiers misbehave there is no doubt about it. When they behave, there is nothing to hear except differences among loudspeakers, which are mostly easy to hear. In our double-blind tests it is common for three or four loudspeakers to be driven by identical power amplifiers. It is not difficult these days to find competently designed "neutral" amplifiers, in spite of the poetry displayed in non-blind subjectivist reviews.
If you liked my YouTube lecture, you should really like my new book.
Thank you very much for your reply Dr. Toole!
Instead of discussing with you the merits of the null test and how amplifiers with different null test results will sound differently - very much like loudspeakers with different spinoramas will definitely sound differently - I would like to show you the proper apparatus for null tedting. It's so beautifully easy that people seem to not understand it fully or to disregard it solely based on its simplicity (yet another psychoacoustics phenomena Dr. Toole ).
Unfortunately, I'm not able to post any diagrams as image, so I kindly ask to the forum administration to allow me to do just that. Can I do it, please?
The Salon2’s are very nice, in my top 5 favorite speakers at TAVES 2 years ago. I’m looking forward to hearing the F228BE’s and how they compare to the Salon2’s 10 year old design.
Good point. I guess they just never bothered to make the F228BE that great or they would have to upgrade the Ultima2’s and Salon2’s which might be hard to do. Thinking about it, I guess I’m not that eager to hear the F228BE’s now if I still prefer 2 or 3 other speakers that are the same price or cheaper than Salon2’s. They aren’t my absolute favourites but they are awesome speakers for sure and I can hear why people love them.The more interesting and fair comparison IMO would be F228Be vs Studio2. More similar size and design. Still the drivers, crossovers and front baffle make the Studio2 more expensive and potentially better. Is it worth the next step up? I'm sure Revel thinks so or it would be updating the Studio2.
Salon2 vs F228Be is apples and oranges. Salon2 is much bigger and capable of far more SPL. Even though it is 10 years old, nothing has beat it in the Harman Multichannel Listening Lab (MLL). Folks ask why they haven't updated it. Their answer is there is no reason to, it's still the best speaker in it's price range and beats speakers well above it's price.
If the F228Be beat the Salon2 in double blind tests, Revel would be working on updating the Salon2. No plans for that.
It can work with a signal generator or with a CD for real musical conditions of operation...and with a reactive load attached...
Connect a signal generator or a Compact Disc Player to points AB.
Connect your favorite loudspeaker to points CD.
And connect to points AC :
-A DNM to read the null
-A osciloscope to see the null
-A second amplifier or a signal tracer in order to ear the null...
Starting with the potentiometer in the minimum and gradually increasing it...you will find a point were the voltage across AC is at minimum...this is the null point!
It will show any type of distortion...because it will show the diference between input and output...and a zero difference will be the limit!!!
So easy and so real...
I think they made the F228Be to be quite excellent at a price point in between the F208 and Studio2, there was a gap that needed to be filled.Good point. I guess they just never bothered to make the F228BE that great or they would have to upgrade the Ultima2’s and Salon2’s which might be hard to do. Thinking about it, I guess I’m not that eager to hear the F228BE’s now if I still prefer 2 or 3 other speakers that are the same price or cheaper than Salon2’s. They aren’t my absolute favorites but they are awesome speakers for sure and I can hear why people love them.
This is probably not the correct thread, although the place to reach Dr. Toole I suppose. I would love to see results from amplifiers that you have performed the test on, but you should start a new thread in the amplifier section. I will follow you over there as it is of interest to me for sure.The apparatus is shown in the attached image, credit to my dear friend Jorge Santos.
In his own words:
Please let me know your findings after test it Dr. Toole !
Depends on the usage and how large the room is I guess. I prefer the Yamaha NS5000’s over anything I’ve heard yet at any price. The Kharma Elegance S7’s are my second choice but for a medium sized room. I also slightly prefer the Bryston Model T’s and Dali Epicon 6. If I wanted the most accurate speakers for a large room I’d have Salon2’s. Like many people my favourites aren’t dead accurate speakers for music playback, but also not too far from it.I think they made the F228Be to be quite excellent at a price point in between the F208 and Studio2, there was a gap that needed to be filled.
Curious to know what your preferences are over Salon2, especially if they can really be had for less money. Revel tries darn hard to not let that happen!
Congrats on the new speakers. Really enjoying my F208's as well. What did you think of the shrink wrap?I got my gloss black F208’s in today. A few quick impressions.
These look bigger in my house than in @John Schuermann’s house. I probably got a little too used to the M126Be’s size.
The F208’s throw a huge soundstage and were very easy to bond in with my JL subs. I only spent about 30 or so minutes setting them up and they sounded fantastic. My Sonus Faber’s took half a day to even just start enjoying any kind of imaging and soundstage.
These have very good mid-bass, which is probably part of why they were so easy to integrate with the subs. . I’m using these with two JL Dominion subs crossed over at 80Hz currently, boundary control turned off, 10 degrees of toe in, 4 feet off the front wall and three from the nearest sidewall. I’ll probably look at upgrading the subs to E112’s eventually to better keep up with the F208’s. In the interim though, this combo doesn’t disappoint. I’ve been listening all day and have been enjoying it all.
These are also very clean and can play at deceptively high levels. I was enjoying Hanuman from Rodrigo y Gabriela and I didn’t think it was too far above my usual listening level. Then my wife came in to ask me to turn it down and I couldn’t hear her. That last part didn’t help my case about it not being too loud.
I’ll play around with placement to see if I can still further improve imaging, but for a down and dirty set up it is pretty darn good already.
Thanks again to The Screening Room and @John Schuermann for a fantastic experience. Love those guys.