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My worry is that I'm already seeing strong resonance at the lower frequencies below 40hz and adding the subwoofers is going to make that problem worse. I will almost certainly need to apply EQ; but, I'll probably start with some treatment first to see if I can tame those resonances.
Room mode resonances are minimum phase, so equalizing them in the frequency domain also fixes the time domain. You'll find this discussed in the book when it arrives.

If your source is a computer, you have many options for dsp, such as EqualizerAPO or JRiver Media Center.
 

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If your source is a computer, you have many options for dsp, such as EqualizerAPO or JRiver Media Center.
Multiple sources including a turntable. :)
 

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I do have subwoofers. I want to get the best possible response from the Salon 2 before I integrate the subwoofers.
Perfect, then forget about dealing with the response in the subwoofer region, like 40 Hz nulls. Proper sub placement and integration will take care of that independent of the mains and save you a lot of grief and wasted time. Your goal IME/IMO should be to get the mains optimized in the region above the subwoofer range, perhaps 60 to 80 Hz and above, and then deal with subwoofer placement and integration.

FWIWFM - Don
 

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I'm already seeing strong resonance at the lower frequencies below 40hz and adding the subwoofers is going to make that problem worse. I will almost certainly need to apply EQ; but, I'll probably start with some treatment first to see if I can tame those resonances.
If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers. Acoustical treatment - bass traps - that are effective at 40 Hz are very large devices - certainly larger and more expensive than many products promoted as "bass traps/absorbers" that actually do little or nothing at such low frequencies. Chapter 8 explains.

Good luck.
 

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Perfect, then forget about dealing with the response in the subwoofer region, like 40 Hz nulls. Proper sub placement and integration will take care of that independent of the mains and save you a lot of grief and wasted time. Your goal IME/IMO should be to get the mains optimized in the region above the subwoofer range, perhaps 60 to 80 Hz and above, and then deal with subwoofer placement and integration.

FWIWFM - Don

If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers. Acoustical treatment - bass traps - that are effective at 40 Hz are very large devices - certainly larger and more expensive than many products promoted as "bass traps/absorbers" that actually do little or nothing at such low frequencies. Chapter 8 explains.

Good luck.
OK! OK! I get it! I was really hoping to dial in the speakers a bit more successfully; but, I understand. My main concern is that I don't have any system to HPF the speakers right now.

And yes, I have two subwoofers. :)
 

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Also..I'm not to chapter 8 in your book yet! It just arrived yesterday and I had a busy evening. I managed to get through the introduction and a fair amount of chapter 1. :)
 

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OK! OK! I get it! I was really hoping to dial in the speakers a bit more successfully; but, I understand. My main concern is that I don't have any system to HPF the speakers right now.

And yes, I have two subwoofers. :)

Since you have a preamp and separate power amplifier there are many options for line-level crossovers, such as:
miniDSP (inexpensive DSP-based products)
dbx 223 (analog, Linkwitz-Riley professional crossover)
Marchand Electronics (passive and active crossovers)
Bryston 10B-sub (very nice, pricey)
Etc.
 

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Thanks @Floyd Toole appreciate it- I will add your book to my reading list :)


For Salon2 owners, you should try to passive bi-amp the speakers as @RichB mentioned in his review- to my subjective ears it made a positive difference (of course you have to weigh in if 2x amp channel is worth $$ difference or not).

Regards,
Kishore

Where is this review located ?

Thanks
 

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Since you have a preamp and separate power amplifier there are many options for line-level crossovers, such as:
miniDSP (inexpensive DSP-based products)
dbx 223 (analog, Linkwitz-Riley professional crossover)
Marchand Electronics (passive and active crossovers)
Bryston 10B-sub (very nice, pricey)
Etc.
Yup. There's also the McIntosh MEN220 which has both the crossover elements as well as Lyngdorf RoomPerfect for EQ. Like the Bryston, it's very pricey! I've said earlier in the thread (no worries if you missed it) that miniDSP products don't work for my setup due to output voltage on the McIntosh preamp far exceeding the input voltages on the MiniDSP. Some of their more expensive models support balanced connections and could work.

I think the dbx 223xs is probably a great place to start. I will probably end up with something like a MEN220 or maybe even a Balanced MiniDSP Dirac solution; until then, this will let me integrate more effectively without another big hit to the wallet!
 

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If you are planning to add subwoofers - more than one please: two or four - they will interact with the 40 Hz mode very differently from your present speakers.
Dr. Toole, why specifically 2 or 4? Why not 2 to 4, or even (I suppose) >4? (It does get silly after a while, but still.)

I re-read 8.2.6 - 8.2.8, and it seems that adding subwoofers in pairs is assumed without stating any reason to disfavor odd numbers of subwoofers. Can you elaborate?
 

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Also..I'm not to chapter 8 in your book yet! It just arrived yesterday and I had a busy evening. I managed to get through the introduction and a fair amount of chapter 1. :)
I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.
@Floyd Toole , I use your work as a "reference manual", more than a "book". Not that I would be so bold as to suggest any titles, but "Sound Reproduction: Master Reference Manual, Vol. 4", has a nice ring to it. :)
 

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I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.
The introduction actually suggests not reading it as a book. However. Chapters 1 and 4 look to be solid overview material that's probably worth reading before diving into the more specialized topics. At least, that's how I read the introductions.
 

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The introduction actually suggests not reading it as a book. However. Chapters 1 and 4 look to be solid overview material that's probably worth reading before diving into the more specialized topics. At least, that's how I read the introductions.
Actually, I would suggest that "sophisticated" readers start with the last chapter - 18. It summarizes the core theme of the book and adds a lot of juicy measurements on some products older audio folk will recognize. It may be disturbing to a few with strong brand biases.

Why 2 or 4 subs? It came out of Todd Welti's very first investigation in which he examined 1 to 5000!! subs in a room model. It has to do with the axial symmetry required to strongly interact with standing waves and to either amplify or attenuate them. The result was that one was not enough and more than four added little or nothing. Combinations of two or four were most effective in passive rectangular room solutions. In Sound Field Management, a more complicated active process, odd numbers can work, but it helps to start with even numbers. Don't forget that with multiple subs they can be smaller - there is a significant efficiency gain. The availability of competent powered closed box subwoofers at moderate prices is very encouraging.
 

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I don't think reading through it like a book is the best approach (IMO). Too many nuggets in there that may not be appreciated unless your reading for a purpose. So just head to chapter 8 and have at it.
@Floyd Toole , I use your work as a "reference manual", more than a "book". Not that I would be so bold as to suggest any titles, but "Sound Reproduction: Master Reference Manual, Vol. 4", has a nice ring to it. :)
Believe it or not, your suggested title is close to one that I had considered. "Handbook" and "reference" are magic words to some people, but I have seen so many such books over the years that were nothing but amateurish collections of folklore that I could not stomach the idea. So, I chose a less aggressive title from a marketing perspective. Sigh. But I sleep well at night :)
 

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Yup. There's also the McIntosh MEN220 which has both the crossover elements as well as Lyngdorf RoomPerfect for EQ. Like the Bryston, it's very pricey! I've said earlier in the thread (no worries if you missed it) that miniDSP products don't work for my setup due to output voltage on the McIntosh preamp far exceeding the input voltages on the MiniDSP. Some of their more expensive models support balanced connections and could work.

I think the dbx 223xs is probably a great place to start. I will probably end up with something like a MEN220 or maybe even a Balanced MiniDSP Dirac solution; until then, this will let me integrate more effectively without another big hit to the wallet!
I saw the Mac stuff in your sig but forgot to look on their site; I just threw out my normal off-the-cuff list from memory. The dbx unit has been my "go-to" unit for decades. I have also used an ARC (tube) crossover and a variety of DIY designs over the years. But, the dbx is inexpensive, decent quality, and gets the job done. They (and others) make more advanced DSP-based units, as do companies like Rane and Behringer, but for a nice simple solution I always turn to the little dbx analog units.
 
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I saw the Mac stuff in your sig but forgot to look on their site; I just threw out my normal off-the-cuff list from memory. The dbx unit has been my "go-to" unit for decades. I have also used an ARC (tube) crossover and a variety of DIY designs over the years. But, the dbx is inexpensive, decent quality, and gets the job done. They (and others) make more advanced DSP-based units, as do companies like Rane and Behringer, but for a nice simple solution I always turn to the little dbx analog units.
Thanks for sharing your experience; Amazon will have my dbx 223xs delivered on Friday. That'll give me time this weekend to dial-in those subwoofers!
 

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Believe it or not, your suggested title is close to one that I had considered. "Handbook" and "reference" are magic words to some people, but I have seen so many such books over the years that were nothing but amateurish collections of folklore that I could not stomach the idea. So, I chose a less aggressive title from a marketing perspective. Sigh. But I sleep well at night :)
Well, I'll admit to shameless plugging of my M2 "Master Reference Monitors" in that title. The fact that I could plug it in the Revel thread made it an irresistable suggestion :D.
 

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Well, I'll admit to shameless plugging of my M2 "Master Reference Monitors" in that title. The fact that I could plug it in the Revel thread made it an irresistable suggestion :D.
Well I shamelessly, indeed proudly, show M2s, with measurements, on the cover of my book. It is a worthy performance benchmark, along with Revels. Pity that more products in the loudspeaker universe don't perform as well.:). The knowledge to do so has existed for decades.
 

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Well I shamelessly, indeed proudly, show M2s, with measurements, on the cover of my book. It is a worthy performance benchmark, along with Revels. Pity that more products in the loudspeaker universe don't perform as well.:). The knowledge to do so has existed for decades.

The fact that so many loudspeakers exist that don't perform well given the knowledge to make them do so has existed for decades is a very sad state of affairs for audio professionals and enthusiasts.
 
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