AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
327 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, Vince brought his X1 projector over the night before last and we again set it up to do some comparisons with my PLV-60 and further review it. Again, my room is totally dark no ambient light at all, we are projecting onto a 100" diagonal 16:9 Greyhawk. Calibration is done using AVIA. The DVD player we are using on the X1 is the Pioneer Elie DV-05 through both the S-Video and and also the Component Video Adapter (we don't have a VGA to component breakout cable or we would use the Panasonic RP-91 progressive player).


If you remember my last review we found the color accuracy to be off and rather disappointing using the Component Adapter. We decided to start with a quick but crude look at the VGA input using a computer that is pretty good but no where near a HTPC. Since we don't have a couple of the software and hardware items needed to calibrate and get the best picture here...this was done on just a whim to see how it looked. It was immediately apparent that the color using the VGA input was NIGHT and DAY from either the S-Video or Component Inputs. We were not able to fully realize the potential because of our limitations, but the difference was huge! No doubt about it...the VGA is the input you should be using! If you don't have a HTPC or Progressive Scan DVD player (with the VGA breakout cable) then you are really missing out on the X1's true potential.


After the quick look at VGA, we hooked up the DV-05 to the S-Video. We couldn't't do a good A/B test between the S-Video and Component adapter because of being forced to change the adapter out each time. So, our impressions were based on our perceptions and weren't as fool proof as they would have been could we have switched immediately between the two. The picture with the S-Video appeared to be better than the picture from the Component as far as color accuracy and I was rather confident of that. Any other differences between the two were not apparent.


We next decided to look at the screen door more closely and compare them between the two projectors. The first thing to note is that the pixels on the X1 are 3 to 4 times the size of the pixels on the PLV-60. In other words, almost 4 pixels from the PLV-60 could fit into 1 pixel from the X1 due to the differences in resolution. This makes a big difference as far as the overall resolution of the picture as well as the screen door. To compare the screen door we adjusted both projectors to perfect pixel focus and put sharpness at standard (the middle setting) on the X1 and in the middle on the PLV-60 (16 on a scale up to 31). Our viewing distance was from 13'. The screen door was MUCH more visible on the X1 than on the PLV-60. We felt the biggest reason for this was the simple density of the pixel count from each projector. The X1's pixels were much bigger and therefore more noticeable. Just adjust a tad from perfect pixel focus either way and the screen door is gone without any loss in clarity on the overall picture.


Next we looked at the scaling/deinterlacing from the X1's infamous chip. Is it a better chip than the one in the PLV-60...YES! Comparing the PLV-60 to the X1 using the 480i DV-05, the X1 had less artifacts and jaggies. Is the picture from a 480i source up to the picture from a moderately priced Progressive Scan DVD player (like the RP-91)...NO! I noticed several jaggies and artifacts in scenes that are not there when watching the movie on the RP-91 in progressive mode. Another reason to use the VGA input.


As for the missing pixels. It was very evident when using the A/B switch between the two projectors that a good part of the bottom of the picture was missing from the X1. Is it a huge piece?, no...but it is still not there which I don't like. It is doubtful you will miss anything from the picture that is pertinent to the film, but I am a true fan of widescreen and I hate missing anything the director intended me to see.


We experimented a bit using the CC20R filter from my PLV-60 on the X1 (we removed the ND portion of the filter sandwich as the blacks are already good enough with the X1) and both found the picture to be better than before. We took down red to 40 from 50 and I am sure the picture could have used a little more tweaking, but it was evident to me that the X1 can perform even better with the appropriate CCR filter...I think Steve Smallcombe might already be working on this.


Again we both really liked the picture form the X1. The picture for the price is AMAZING. However, we still felt the PLV-60 to be superior in most categories...but it should be since it costs $5000! Remember though, we still haven't done a good comparison using the VGA input...that review will be coming as soon as we get a VGA breakout cable.


I haven't seen the Z1, or some of the other projectors in the under $3000 price range, but I would bet the X1 will give any projector under $3000 a run for its money.


I think Vince has some pictures from our review that he will be posting soon here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,574 Posts
WRT the cropping of the image?


Did you try setting the DVD player to output a 4X3 image (in which case the scaling is done by the DVD player)? Then, the X1 would simply be displaying a 4X3 image.


The Pioneer machines do not do a very good job at scaling anamorphic DVD's in my experience, but it would be interesting to see how people find this, because it would not crop the image.
 

·
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
·
8,301 Posts
Once again, an excellent post, Jack!


I'm sorry that I have not been posting much lately, but I have come down with the flu and find myself spending the vast majority of my time in bed. :(


Anyway, I am glad to hear that you had such great success with a PC and the VGA input, even if your setup was pretty much crippled. I'm sure you can imagine just how good the quality is from a totally optimized HTPC. Believe me, it is significantly better than ANY progressive scan DVD player, and with the X1 (or any other projector for that matter), it is the most cost efficient method of getting the very highest quality output.


I know you asked some questions about HTPC's in another thread, but I'll just post a few things here in regards to properly setting up a HTPC. My recipe for a picture that is to die for is:


Intel P4 processor, at least 1 ghz

512 meg RAM

Asus P4B266 or P4B533 motherboard

any Radeon card (right now the 9000 Pro is probably the "best buy")

M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 audio card

hard drive of choice ( I like the Maxtor "quiet" drives)

any new model Toshiba or Pioneer DVD drive


Windows XP

Radeon Catalyst 2.3 or 2.4 drivers

latest M-Audio beta 0.31 drivers

PowerStrip 3.xx (for custom resolutions)


and most importantly:


Theater Tek DVD 1.5


The Radeon cards , in conjunction with the Catalyst drivers and Sonic decoders (the decoders are included in the Theater Tek package) will provide you with the finest picture you have ever seen from a DVD player short of an SDI modded standalone DVD player combined with an Immersive Holo3DGraph card (basically a poor man's Snell and Wilcox Interpolator). If you set up such a machine, I can provide you with scoped settings for the drivers in order to produce absolutely perfect IRE levels (thanks to Cliff Watson!). If you liked what you saw in regards to color with your crude setup, wait until you see this! PowerDVD and WinDVD look anemic in comparison, and any video card other than a Radeon will make things even worse, but the combination I have outlined above will provide a picture so good that you will never be able to go back to ANY standalone DVD player.


And the interface of Theater Tek was designed to mimic set top box, and it does so extremely well. Actually, it is better! You can start a DVD, go through the setup menus, set your audio track of choice, and even tweak up the color controls (you know, on those horrible transfers), and then tweak up the overlay size on a pixel by pixel basis, and then bookmark the beginning of the film. The next time you play that DVD, Theater Tek will remember all the settings, and play back the film right from the start, bypassing the menus, FBI warnings, etc. with the colors tweaked up and AR adjusted just like you had it before. And TT can do this for EVERY DVD in your collection!


Theater Tek also auto senses the aspect ratio and plays every film, menu, and/or extra at the correct AR without you having to do anything. Pretty slick, heh?


Ok, now back to your discussion. After reading this latest review, we seem to be very much on the same page and in agreement 100%. :) My biggest problem with the X1 is the screen door, which on a very large screen (100" x 56") I found to be distracting, but I will try the slight defocussing that you mentioned to see if I can minimize this effect.


I also agree that the scaling from the FLI2200 chip is very good indeed, and so far I have been extremely happy with it. The real test will be when I get a chance to view some poorly flagged and/or video based material to see how well the X1 deinterlaces under those circumstances. Did you experiment with this type of material yet?


And one more time I agreee with you on the cropping issue. I am not technically knowledgable enough to know if it is possible, but I would really like to see the entire picture, even if it meant performing the scaling elsewhere (which I certainly have the ability to do :) ). Hopefully InFocus will have a firmware upgrade that will allow us the option in the future, but for now I find it no big deal at all just as is.


If you find a CCR filter that improves the color accuracy even more, please keep me informed, as I am very intrigued by the prospect. Thanks again for an excellent, well informed post! Now I'll go crawl back into bed...This post has exhausted me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Jack007,


Thanks for 2 detailed, insightful reviews (I read the other thread too). The X1 is on my short list and in depth reviews like yours really help.


Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Very good review. I just have to question, to understand fully something of ur post:

1) it really seems that s-video input is better than component ? no matter the dvd-player u have ? strange

2) sorry if i got u wrong (i'm french, and not completely fluent in technical english;)), but it seems to me that u said using a progressive dvd-player gives better results than using the internal DCDi ?

And if so, the trick is to plug it into the VGA input, rather than the component, in order to bypass the DCDi ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
327 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Sirlx,


First of all, remember, I wasn't able to A/B and quickly switch between the component and s-video like I would like to. In order to do that test properly you would need two X1s on hand one getting S-Video and the other getting Component...then you could switch back and forth and really do a critical review. From the memory in my head of S-Video compared to the Component it seemed to me that the color accuracy was much better on the S-Video. Several others have brought this up besides me, by the way. As to sharpness and resolution differences the two I couldn't tell you.


Using the Pioneer Elite DV-05, which is a VERY good DVD player for putting out a 480i signal, the X1 had artifacting and moving jaggies. These same scenes with a progressive scan player (RP-91) are smooth as silk when viewed through my PLV-60. Remember, I couldn't feed a good progressvie signal to the X1 because my friend (Vince...who owns the X1) does not yet have a VGA breakout cable. I am assuming that when Vince gets the breakout cable and we feed the X1 a progressive signal form my RP-91 that this result will repeat. Once this happens, I will be able to say for sure that the signal from a good Progressive Player is better than a 480i processed by the DCDi on the X1 projector.


Besides that, the color on the VGA input is much better than the S-Video or the Component.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,848 Posts
Jack,


Thanks again for a great post.


"We took down red to 40 from 50 "


This will reduce CR; if ibstead you raise B and G to re-establish color bakance, the CR will beincreased.


Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
149 Posts
Jack007:

When do you anticipate you will be reviewing the X1 with the VGA breakout cable to the Panny RP91? I'm using the NEC lt150 with the Panny RP91 and prefer the PQ over the the HTPC that I used before; Bob Sorel's comments not withstanding.
 

·
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
·
8,301 Posts
Quote:
I'm using the NEC lt150 with the Panny RP91 and prefer the PQ over the the HTPC that I used before; Bob Sorel's comments not withstanding.
If you were using anything less than the setup I described above, then I would completely agree with you, but I own both a Panasonic RP-56 and RP-82 (with SDI mod), so I have had the opportunity to compare those 2 units to the HTPC, and I must respectfully disagree (but like you say, it is a matter of preference). The RP-82, using the SDI output, feeding a Holo3DGraph card, however, is even better than the above HTPC configuration, but also costs a whole lot more too. The RP-91 should be a similar performer to the RP-82, or at least that is what I have been told.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,073 Posts
Hey everyone:


I've had my X1 for a couple of days now and have watched a few movies using a Toshiba 6200 DVD player set to "interlaced" mode and using the S-Video connection. (I tried the component adapter and felt that S-Video was better). I'm currently using a soft white wall to project the image on.


It was great reading all the information on this thread. I have some new insights now to this projector that may be the turning point for me to decide to keep it. During the past 2 days, I've really been bothered by the "rainbows" and I'm somewhat disappointed with the size of the pixels. I'm still evaluating the X1 and these two things may eventually lead me to continue searching. The only other projector I've considered in this price range is the Sanyo Z1, mainly because of its native 16x9 ratio and lack of rainbows.


Now that I've read Jack's awesome review, I would now like to try the VGA input on the X1 (so where can I get this type of breakout cable?). Also, should I get this cable for my Toshiba 6200 or shoud I consider going with a HTPC? I have a good computer (I think good enough to reconfigure for an good HTPC).


A question for Jack007:


Your comment: "Just adjust a tad from perfect pixel focus either way and the screen door is gone without any loss in clarity on the overall picture." First - how do I get perfect pixel focus and then how do I do what you described in this comment?


Also, what type of screen would you recommend for the X1. I'm currently using a soft white colored wall. Would getting a screen make that much of a difference? My concern is that when I'm watching 16x9 DVD's, the brightness of the X1 goes way down and at times looks somewhat dim. Purchsing a 4x3 projector was a tough call for me since most of my viewing is 16x9 DVD and viewing a letterboxed movie with the thick black bars is distracting. What was your reasoning for going with a 4x3 projector vs a 16x9 projector such as the Sanyo Z1? Also, have you tried a high definition signal with the InFocus?


For anyone:


Is the Faroudja chip defeated when using the presentation mode? I just bought an Xbox this evening and am trying all the different modes. The "Presentation" mode seems to kick up the contrast and give a nice kick to the picture, but the "video" mode also looked nice as well. Also, on the XBox games I've played, I haven't been bothered by the "rainbows" that were really getting to me through the Toshiba 6200.) I know these are video games and not film and are not the same thing, but am just curious why no rainbows during these high contrast video games.


Question for Bob:


Your post finally got me interested and excited about tapping into the prospect of finally using a HTPC. My current configuration is as follows:


Windows XP

Pentium IV - 1.2 ghz

512 meg RAM

(not sure what motherboard - I have a Dell)

Nvidia G3 video card

not sure what type of audio card (but its not surround or 24/96)

80 Gig hard drive

Pioneer DVD drive

I have PowerStrip as well, but have never used it


And I don't have Theater Tek DVD 1.5


Being a newbie to the HTPC arena, how hard would it be for me to get set up and running for a HTPC? I really would like to have the best possible source for the X1.


I would appreciate any and all advice, suggestions, etc. Thanks for a great thread.


Jimmy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
You are right about the Theatertek Software.


I recently setup a HTPC w/ Radeon and was using the ATI dvd player. It was a little better on the AE100 than the RP56+AA Transcoder setup I was using.


I downloaded the Theatertek 1.5 and holy crap is it better than WinDVD or ATI DVD player. The smoothness of the picture is spectacular. Colors are vivid. The improvement is so noticable that I was absolutely blown away.


If you have a HTPC... you have to demo the TT DVD player.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by JimmyDaves
Hey everyone:



Also, what type of screen would you recommend for the X1. I'm currently using a soft white colored wall. Would getting a screen make that much of a difference? My concern is that when I'm watching 16x9 DVD's, the brightness of the X1 goes way down and at times looks somewhat dim. Purchsing a 4x3 projector was a tough call for me since most of my viewing is 16x9 DVD and viewing a letterboxed movie with the thick black bars is distracting. What was your reasoning for going with a 4x3 projector vs a 16x9 projector such as the Sanyo Z1? Also, have you tried a high definition signal with the InFocus?


For anyone:


Is the Faroudja chip defeated when using the presentation mode616 West Arlington Place

Jimmy
I hooked my X1 up for HD last night (component to vga input) and was very, very pleased. I compared it to my Sony W400Q, a 16:9 lcd which is a bit long in the tooth, but still a very excellent projector for HD. The X1 easily held its own in my opinion. In fact, the picture in many ways was actually better. Black level was far better. Depth was excellent. The picture was smooth and detailed. The 400Q seemed just a tad more refined, but obviously did not have the contrast of the X1. All-in-all, I preferred the X1 for HD because it had more overall "wow", was more dimensional, much better shadow detail, and still seemed to have all the detail you expect from HD. IMHO, it looks much, much better in HD than you would expect from an SVGA machine.


I am currently using a HCMW 92 x 52 screen from DaLite, and the X1 is only bright enough to put up that big of a picture in almost total light control. When I shrunk the picture down to 61" to compare it with my 61" Sony RPTV, it was plenty bright to have room lights on. It also compared very, very well to my RPTV in terms of overall picture quality. I had a hard time telling the difference. I will be getting a 2.8 gain HiPower screen this week, so I'll let you know how that works with the X1.


I believe the Faroudja processor is only bypassed when you use the VGA input. The component input does not accept any kind of progressive signal--only the VGA input does. At least that's my understanding.


Hope this helps.


mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
312 Posts
Hey Mike. Glad to hear you like the X1. I have been waiting to hear any reports from you. And the quality of the HD image is what I wanted to hear. I can't wait for TimeWarner to get here in a few weeks.


Can't wait to hear more.


patrick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
Yes...it is an older machine. But it was considered far ahead of its time, and is still a very good HD projector. There are many 400q owners who have compared their 400qs to 10hts and 11hts, and didn't see enough of a jump in pq to justify upgrading. So, I believe it is a good endorsement. Jeff McNeal, editor and publish of bigpicturedvd.com recently posted in the 400q fourm (and he has seen and reviewed a lot of projectors, including the Sanyo Plv 60 and Plv 70, Sony 11ht, etc.) this reply to a question about the Sanyo Z1 vs the Sony 400q:


"The PLV-Z1 is really not comparable to the W400Q in my opinion. I'll have a review published on this site shortly.


The Z1 is a very basic, entry level front projector that lacks the sophisticated optics of the W400Q, and the brightness isn't as great over the W400Q than you might think from the specs.


It's a nice projector for someone who has never had a W400Q, but in my opinion, anyone going from a W400Q to a Z1 is apt to be a bit disappointed.


Keep in mind that the price of the Z1 makes it an excellent value for what it offers, but it's not in the same league as the W400Q in my opinion.


The throw distance is significantly shorter, too."





I'm AM NOT denigrating the Z1 IN ANY WAY--just pointing out that THE 400Q is still an excellent projector, and for the X1 to outperform it in picture quality is no small accomplishment. Beating the 400q IS a good endorsement. The Z1 and X1 are on a lot of people's short lists--I think this kind of information can be very helpful.


mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Another question :)


The white segment is turned off when u choose video or presentation mode, or is it linked to how u hooked ur dvd-player to the projector ?


I ask this to simply know if the yuv -> VGA input (what seems to be the best input when i read u) don't let the white segment on, as this type of connexion is usually used for computers...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
407 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Sirlx
Another question :)


The white segment is turned off when u choose video or presentation mode, or is it linked to how u hooked ur dvd-player to the projector ?
The white segment is turned off when you're in video or film mode, it's on when in presentation mode. It is not dependent on how or what is hooked up. The S-Video/component and the composite connectors are processed by the Faroudja chip the VGA port is not, so if you have a non progressive scan DVD player connected to the S-video/component or composite connectors it will be processed. If your DVD player has progressive scan and it's switched on you cannot use these connectors and must use the VGA port with a 3rd party breakout cable.


I have a progressive scan DVD player and use the S-Video connector with the progressive scan feature of the DVD player turned off. The result is an excellent and vibrant picture.


Some people have mentioned that the image is dark in video or film mode compared to the presentation mode and even the review in PCentral says the output is reduced by 50%. Frankly I don't see this kind of reduction. Bob, from InFocus suggested that the reduction was more like 30%. That I can see, but not 50%. The other thing is, unlike direct view and RPTV manufacturers who ship their product with the contrast up at the top of their range, Infocus ships the X1 the all setting at 50%, leaving you lots of latitude. I've found that simple manipulation of these controls will give you a very bright and dynamic image. I'm using a 92" wide screen with no problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
312 Posts
audible, what are your settings? I tried to use Sound & Vision Home Theater tune up and the settings I came up with didn't look too well. Dark, too much color. I had backed them off a bit and got the picture looking even better than before. However, in messing around with the user presets and saving them, I lost everything. So I am now back to the factory settings.


Thanks.


patrick
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top