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That fact that you have four subs, I think that you could get a better combined response then what your getting at the moment.
Is it possible to have all 4 subs going individually into the MiniDsp ?
At at the moment your not gaining very much, this could be down to sub positions, or 2 front not aligned properly and same for the back subs nit been aligned properly
Ideally in your scenario you would setup the subs according to the video of this thread

Plus just looking at your Dirac corrections, careful not to boost your speakers too much around the 20hz FR, have the target curve follow the natural response of the speakers, same applies in the higher FR too. The center is spot on, but the FL/FR needs a bit of attention
I was up till 3am.. this is what I got below. I think it's better? I can't get all 4 subs individually into MiniDSP since the each amp powers 2 subs I can only 2 channels on the mini-dsp. Front and rear. I could maybe try front left paired with rear left? but that doens't seem like it would make sense given the delay.
 

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I was up till 3am.. this is what I got below. I think it's better? I can't get all 4 subs individually into MiniDSP since the each amp powers 2 subs I can only 2 channels on the mini-dsp. Front and rear. I could maybe try front left paired with rear left? but that doens't seem like it would make sense given the delay.
Okay you did mention that in your last post

If Image 1 is the combined response then it's looking a lot better than before and I would be happy with that. It lacks the ULF around 20hz but otherwise a very nice looking FR.
Yes it would make no sense to group a front and a rear together given the distance and they more than likely be out of polarity.

For your own sanity it is best to label what each measurement is
Like for example Sub1+2, Sub 3+4, Combined subs. REW can get messy real fast and labeling is key to keeping logs of your progression

So just assuming that Image 1 is the combined result, I think Dirac will work very well with this

Let us know how it sounds :):)
 

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Without miniDSP how does audyssey handle the sub distance changes after Audyssey is run. I would think it is EQing with the peaks and nulls pre sub distance changes, so if you change the distance afterwards, the EQing is all messed up?

I get a good response after room placement and time aligning (sub distance tweaking) but Audyssey seems to be making it worse.

With Audyssey, without sub distance tweaking - not good
With Audyssey and sub distrance tweaking - OK
No Audyssey with sub distance tweaking - looks great


Also, if you have a miniDSP and everything looks great, whats the point of Audyssey. Your EQing on top of your already near perfect EQ you setup with miniDSP.
 

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Hi Rafael,

Perhaps there is a bit of information overload happening here, which can happen very fast especially when using REW. Plus there can be a bit of a fixation of trying to have a the prettiest looking graph without too much emphasis on how it sounds!! which is the most important part. Depending on the Peaks or Nulls without looking at a REW graph you might not even notice it

As far as the sub positions, I don't know why you are looking to change them, We have already seen the potential on where they are. You got a great curve there a few post back with Ausdyssey only. It seems the MiniDsp is adding confusion or more variables to something that was almost perfect.

So I was thinking since Audyssey did a good job in time aligning the subs there is another route you could take and still use the Mini Dsp.

Usually we have two sub in to the Mini and one to the AVR (thus creating a virtual sub in Audyysey)
Instead have 2 in the Mini ans 2 in the AVR. Leave the MinDsp at default no distance and full passthrough. Do the Audyssey and try get what you had before.
Now you can add any house curve you want post Audyssey or add BEQ's

This might be a good option, Me personaally I would prefer to do the virtual sub and spend the time:) Time-aligning them pre Audyssey but it's a option that may work out for better

Once your subs are time-aligned regardless of how you did it, that's it don't go near the phase knobs on the subs as this will effect the alignment.

If you want to correct dips at the Xo you have to use the sub distance tweak, plus dips beyond the 120hz is generally speaker related not sub depending if you are using a higher Xo. @Alan P has just explained how to do this ^^^^

The part about have one sub helping each other is one the reasons of going multiple subs and believe me that preferably we would like both subs to have good individual FR, you will gain more SPL and more seat to seat consistency, so going dual wasn't a bad move. Plus the myth of not hearing a sub been localized below 80hz is extremely debatable and having multiple subs evens out this and really helps fill the room a lot more.

@mthomas47 has a great guide that might be worth having a read over while taking a time-out plus he has also just added a new section on localized bass below 80z
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences.html

So I was just reading your post again you say that 15-120hz you are pretty happy with but are not after this. This can be down to speaker position, mic placement, or maybe there not as bad as you think, your not going to get a perfect looking graph, no such thing IMHO

So I think it is best to step back for a while, enjoy the system as it is, get a feel for the sound and how you would like to improve on a later date. Don't get too fixated on REW, it's a fantastic tool but can mess with our OCD more time than we like.
And your right take it in baby steps rather than trying to too many things at once, this applies from beginners to advanced, less is more

Remember our ears have the final say not REW :)

I hope this helps
All the best

Jim
Thank you for the advice.

Yes, going all in at once (New subs...MiniDSP...REW, etc) was probably the wrong way to go...lol.

For now I have settled on what I think is a good setup....we just finished watching John Wick marathon and everyone was really pleased. :)

I will probably revisit in more depth and being more precise when I upgrade my 5.0/7.0 speakers.
 

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I would get the CSL one, its more accurate and measures down to 5hz
Would it be worth sending my current Umik-1 to get calibrated if I am having crossover issues with my mains and subs? I am trying a few other things first to see if any of them will work.
 

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Would it be worth sending my current Umik-1 to get calibrated if I am having crossover issues with my mains and subs? I am trying a few other things first to see if any of them will work.

I had looked into it for myself as well and was told it was going to cost around $60 which is about over 50% of the cost of a new one from them so I did not pursue it. The real benefit if down low so will likely not impact your crossover issue too much.
 
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So I have 3 subs time aligned on the mini dsp. When I run Audyssey and it wants me to decrease or increase sub volume do I just use input 1 volume on the mini dsp to do this?
 

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I created a new topic post, but figured I could post it here as well since it applies.
There seems to be conflicting info out there. Trying to get clarification which approach is best:

Scenario 1)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
With all subs on, run SPL and adjust miniDSP input to read 75db
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 2)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn sub one on and with an SPL reading, adjust it in minidsp to 75
Turn off sub one and turn each sub on and off and adjust all to 75db
Turn them all on and run an SPL check. If the reading is greater than 75, lower the miniDSP input gain to 75 (not changing the individual gains). Or, lower each sub below 75, match them all one at a time, and then get a combined reading of 75.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 3)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey.
Audyssey will ask to lower the input gain in minidsp until it hits 75.

Is there a difference in how to approach it all with these three (three and a half) scenarios ? I assume it matters when to EQ and how it synchs with audyssey. And does volume matter when doing all this?

Thanks in advance. This thread is crazy long and tried to find out, but seems it is all over the place.
 

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So I will be receiving my minidsp in about a week, but I have a question regarding some posts I read a little down the line on this thread that have me wondering now.. my system is a 2.2 and have been measuring with REW using Java, but my system is mainly movies and gaming. So is using Java wrong in my case? My system sounds good and the FR I was getting through REW were good as well, but now I’m worried I have been doing it wrong since I’ve read that ASIO is better for those who mainly watch movies.. Also when I was measuring with REW using Java my receiver was in Multi CH In, is this wrong as well? Help on this matter will be very much appreciated, thanks.
 

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Hi All,


Long time subcriber but 1st post. I decided to after a change of LCR (JBL 3677) and subs (2 SVS SB2000 in front corners) to run REW with new purchased Minidsp 2x4 HD.
1st gain matched subs (Umik1 at 1" from sub drivers), XO on subs set to LFE on dial, Denon Avr 3500x Audyssey off, LFE XO left at 120hz, speakers set to small and highest XO possible (250HZ before Audyssey calibration and 80hz for mains after calibration), REW connected to AVR with HDMI and output via HMDI channel 4 (LFE). I have a 2 seater sofa, so measurements taken centre, left and right positions.


Overall pleased by the results but wondering why such a drop in db from about 50hz to 120hz ( ended up not so much after Audyssey calibration but still down). I normally have Dynamic EQ engaged as parents current staying with me due to Covid-19 so currently can't run the system as high as I would like (currently between -28 to -20, normally -14 to -10).



Looking at other graphs they all seem to show good output up to the XO to mains (mine set to 80hz and 120hz to surrounds/atmos speakers), so is this something i should worry about? I've attached my results showing both subs measured at the 3 positions before and after Audyssey. (During Audyssey setup adjusted gain slightly up on the Minidsp for the subs on input 1)



Any advise appreciated.
 

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I created a new topic post, but figured I could post it here as well since it applies.
There seems to be conflicting info out there. Trying to get clarification which approach is best:

Scenario 1)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
With all subs on, run SPL and adjust miniDSP input to read 75db
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 2)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn sub one on and with an SPL reading, adjust it in minidsp to 75
Turn off sub one and turn each sub on and off and adjust all to 75db
Turn them all on and run an SPL check. If the reading is greater than 75, lower the miniDSP input gain to 75 (not changing the individual gains). Or, lower each sub below 75, match them all one at a time, and then get a combined reading of 75.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 3)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey.
Audyssey will ask to lower the input gain in minidsp until it hits 75.

Is there a difference in how to approach it all with these three (three and a half) scenarios ? I assume it matters when to EQ and how it synchs with audyssey. And does volume matter when doing all this?

Thanks in advance. This thread is crazy long and tried to find out, but seems it is all over the place.
This is what I did ...no clue if it was correct or not...but I was going under the impression that with pair of identical subs I wanted their gain knobs to be set to the same thing on both... so I:

1) Computed the difference in distances between the subs (in my case they were almost equal distance)...set the closet subs delay accordingly in Minidsp.
2) Set miniDSP to only output to sub1
3) Used Audyssey to set SUB 1 gain knob so that it was happy (in the green)
4) Set SUB 2 gain knob to same as SUB 1
5) set miniDSP to output to SUB1 and SUB2
6) reran audyssey and this time if it told me I need to adjust the "gain"...I only did so within MiniDSP to make Audyssey happy(max green). I never touched the gain knobs on either of the Subs after initially setting/matcing them.
 

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I have started working on integrating my main speakers with the subwoofers. The first recommendation was two adjust the virtual subwoofer distance reported by the preamp. That definitely made a difference. The original distance reported was 17.7 feet but things look a little better at 15.7 feet. I may find a slightly better value with fine tuning but since I saw additional anomalies appearing, I decided to stick with that for the moment.

However I am curious about the frequency response above 80Hz. If you look at the second attachment you will see the volume bounces up and down quite regularly all the way to 20kHz. I wonder if there is something wrong with my microphone calibration or if I missed something obvious when I was configuring REW.
 

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I have started working on integrating my main speakers with the subwoofers. The first recommendation was two adjust the virtual subwoofer distance reported by the preamp. That definitely made a difference. The original distance reported was 17.7 feet but things look a little better at 15.7 feet. I may find a slightly better value with fine tuning but since I saw additional anomalies appearing, I decided to stick with that for the moment.

However I am curious about the frequency response above 80Hz. If you look at the second attachment you will see the volume bounces up and down quite regularly all the way to 20kHz. I wonder if there is something wrong with my microphone calibration or if I missed something obvious when I was configuring REW.

That is normal as the mic picks up every little reflection. You need to use smoothing to see how you will hear. Go to graph in REW and pick VAR as that will keep the bass pretty much as is (you dont want smoothing in bass) and give you a better indication of whats going on in the rest of the range.
 

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I created a new topic post, but figured I could post it here as well since it applies.
There seems to be conflicting info out there. Trying to get clarification which approach is best:

Scenario 1)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
With all subs on, run SPL and adjust miniDSP input to read 75db
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 2)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn sub one on and with an SPL reading, adjust it in minidsp to 75
Turn off sub one and turn each sub on and off and adjust all to 75db
Turn them all on and run an SPL check. If the reading is greater than 75, lower the miniDSP input gain to 75 (not changing the individual gains). Or, lower each sub below 75, match them all one at a time, and then get a combined reading of 75.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey

Scenario 3)
Set volume in AVR and do not change it
Turn one sub on in minidsp and get the SPL from the MLP
Turn off the sub and turn a different sub on. Match the SPL reading to the first sub. Proceed for all four subs.
Run room sweeps and add delays
EQ the total result to a flat 75 and run Audyssey.
Audyssey will ask to lower the input gain in minidsp until it hits 75.

Is there a difference in how to approach it all with these three (three and a half) scenarios ? I assume it matters when to EQ and how it synchs with audyssey. And does volume matter when doing all this?

Thanks in advance. This thread is crazy long and tried to find out, but seems it is all over the place.
Hi

Yes this can be confusing as once you have all your subs level matched, distance applied and EQued the total SPL will now lower than before the EQ. All scenarios will work by the looks of it. The most important thing not to do is to increase the volume of the MiniDsp to match the SPL of Audyssey. It is much preferable to decrease in volume and not increase to avoid any unnecessary clipping.

So if you are setting up your subs aim for a slightly higher SPL so when it comes to Audyssey you only have to decrease in volume in the MiniDsp

I don't see any problem with any of the approaches mentioned other than what I have said above

Hope this helps

Jim
 

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Alan, if I am not mistaken the minidsp, at least the 2x4 HD version has 0.5 as the lowest Q value....
You are correct! I meant to write "2.0" and have edited my original post. :eek:

Thanks for catching that imureh!
 
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You are correct! I meant to write "2.0" and have edited my original post. :eek:



Thanks for catching that imureh!


No worries Alan, what's a placement of a decimal among friends....;):D
 

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Thanks for the video and guide it was very helpful to understand how to optimize two subs! Right now i am running dual PB2000s and have what seems to be a lack of bass. Before I go down the path to upgrade to 15 inch woofers i want to make sure i am optimizing what I have 1st!

I don't have a MiniDSP but I played with the phase on the back of the Subs as I am thinking that was the same as adding delay.

Playing with the Phase I am able to get the subs to align better by putting one at about 135 degrees. The green and red are the two subs (with Phase tuning) and Blue is the combined. For Reference the Orange is the combined result when both subs where at 0 phase, which causes a nasty dip around 30Hz.

I have Dirac on my Acram receiver and i think i have added a little bit of a house curve there, its not as easy to use as REW for adjusting a curve. I have attached the results after running through Dirac again, the Purple is just the subs while the green is subs+RL. It looks pretty good from what i can tell (minus the dip around 120Hz). From the limited listening i have done it sounds better then before but it still seems to be missing that gut punch, this could be due to the fact my room is an open basement though and my subs just don't have the power...

Do you think I would get any real benefit to my system by adding a MiniDSP to the chain? I am thinking that the Arcam/Dirac and Phase settings give me all the same functions i just want to make sure i am not missing out on something :)
 

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Thanks for the video and guide it was very helpful to understand how to optimize two subs! Right now i am running dual PB2000s and have what seems to be a lack of bass. Before I go down the path to upgrade to 15 inch woofers i want to make sure i am optimizing what I have 1st!

I don't have a MiniDSP but I played with the phase on the back of the Subs as I am thinking that was the same as adding delay.

Playing with the Phase I am able to get the subs to align better by putting one at about 135 degrees. The green and red are the two subs (with Phase tuning) and Blue is the combined. For Reference the Orange is the combined result when both subs where at 0 phase, which causes a nasty dip around 30Hz.

I have Dirac on my Acram receiver and i think i have added a little bit of a house curve there, its not as easy to use as REW for adjusting a curve. I have attached the results after running through Dirac again, the Purple is just the subs while the green is subs+RL. It looks pretty good from what i can tell (minus the dip around 120Hz). From the limited listening i have done it sounds better then before but it still seems to be missing that gut punch, this could be due to the fact my room is an open basement though and my subs just don't have the power...

Do you think I would get any real benefit to my system by adding a MiniDSP to the chain? I am thinking that the Arcam/Dirac and Phase settings give me all the same functions i just want to make sure i am not missing out on something :)
By the looks of it you got a ton of headroom in the ULF range, so you should be getting a good bit of bass from them subs. Your target curve might be lacking in bass. I would go back into Dirac and try some other Dirac target curves. Here is a link of 4 different target curves for bass.
https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2/
Try them out and see how you get on
As regards getting a MiniDsp, depends on what Arcam AVR you have, plus where your subs are located, if you have only one independent sub in out on the AVR than a MiniDsp can be very useful. But if the subs are close to equal distance from the MLP in the front you may not need a MiniDsp, all depends really
 

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I'll give those curves a try and see how they work out. Right now I'm using the default Harmon curves from Arcam and tweaked it add about 4db to the sub 40hz range. That link suggests you apply the same target to all speakers including subs. The curves I have been using has different ones for heights and subwoofers.

I have the AVR390 so it does have two subwoofer outputs that can have thier own delay settings i could tweak more in the speaker settings. These i left to be auto-set from the Dirac calibration after I manually adjusted the phase. I don't think this AVR supports the new Dirac bass module however. Does the mini DSP work similar to that?

In my current room each sub is in the front of the room about equal distant from the MLP
 

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I'll give those curves a try and see how they work out. Right now I'm using the default Harmon curves from Arcam and tweaked it add about 4db to the sub 40hz range. That link suggests you apply the same target to all speakers including subs. The curves I have been using has different ones for heights and subwoofers.

I have the AVR390 so it does have two subwoofer outputs that can have thier own delay settings i could tweak more in the speaker settings. These i left to be auto-set from the Dirac calibration after I manually adjusted the phase. I don't think this AVR supports the new Dirac bass module however. Does the mini DSP work similar to that?

In my current room each sub is in the front of the room about equal distant from the MLP
I don't won't to go to much off topic into to Dirac, but I will say that it's best to use one curve, group all the speakers together and apply this curve, then un-group and correct the target curve to match the measured FR of your speakers using the curtains accordingly. This should give your whole system a but more drive.

Also and this is on topic of this thread, the importance of using the same target curve on all speakers whether it be Dirac or Ratbuddy is that the speakers and the subs are following the same target curve. This helps a lot in the crossover region and overall boost in speakers, which is especially good if the front stage has good low extension as well

You may not need a MiniDsp in your setup, just some fine tuning in Dirac and calibrating the subs to get the best summation. But if you feel you could do better with the subs a MiniDsp is a really good investment, will work well with the 390 and will open up more options especially if you decide to move the sub positions to get a better combined FR
 
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