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Rives suggestion - raising center speaker to the ceiling
Hey Guys,
I'm in the process of revising my room with the help of Rives to optimize for 2 channel and multi channel. They suggested that I raise my 90lb center speaker to the ceiling when I am listening to 2 channel because of the negative impact it has on stereo imaging. When the center channel is in use, it is situated at the correct height behind a acoustically transparent motorized screen.
I spoke to one of the companies that specializes in lifts and it will cost too much money going that route given the weight of the speaker so I want to use some sort of a manual system. Anyone have any ideas or tried anything similar? I was thinking that maybe a pulley system would work. Thanks.
I'm in the process of revising my room with the help of Rives to optimize for 2 channel and multi channel. They suggested that I raise my 90lb center speaker to the ceiling when I am listening to 2 channel because of the negative impact it has on stereo imaging. When the center channel is in use, it is situated at the correct height behind a acoustically transparent motorized screen.
I spoke to one of the companies that specializes in lifts and it will cost too much money going that route given the weight of the speaker so I want to use some sort of a manual system. Anyone have any ideas or tried anything similar? I was thinking that maybe a pulley system would work. Thanks.
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The difference in sound would be negligible, compared to the work it would take for a pulley system. It would also look ridiculous.
Put some wheels on the center channel and roll it away. Or If you have wood floor, like I do, put on some Teflon feet and it can slide easily. The Revel voice comes with Teflon feet, and I feel it is the best center around.
Joey
Put some wheels on the center channel and roll it away. Or If you have wood floor, like I do, put on some Teflon feet and it can slide easily. The Revel voice comes with Teflon feet, and I feel it is the best center around.
Joey
Given that the floor is slate, it's rather impractical to slide it or roll it - very bumpy. I'm going to explore possibilities of putting either a reflector, absorber or diffuser in front of it and listen to the impact. This treatment would either be attached to a movable stand or be attached to the speaker itself.
I have never heard of such a suggestion or even statement of the problem. Is your center not behind your L and R? If so, how possibly could it interfere with even early reflections??? Can you get some justification on the cause of interference from Rives?
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Richard's response has been that having the center speaker aligned height wise with the mains and at the same distance to the listener, compromises 2 channel imaging. In his view, the center placed there is great for HT but not optimal for 2 channel.
Apparently it is better to have totally open space between the 2 main speakers. I could at least partially alleviate this issue if I attached the center to the ceiling or placed it very low to the floor but I am not interested in compromising multi channel performance. Having said all this, I think I may have come up with a very clean, effective and cost effective solution to the problem. I'm going to explore further with a metal works company. If it works, I'll report back.
| Originally posted by tzucc I have never heard of such a suggestion or even statement of the problem. Is your center not behind your L and R? If so, how possibly could it interfere with even early reflections??? Can you get some justification on the cause of interference from Rives? |
Apparently it is better to have totally open space between the 2 main speakers. I could at least partially alleviate this issue if I attached the center to the ceiling or placed it very low to the floor but I am not interested in compromising multi channel performance. Having said all this, I think I may have come up with a very clean, effective and cost effective solution to the problem. I'm going to explore further with a metal works company. If it works, I'll report back.
Do you mean that when playing two channel - only the left and right front speakers in use - that the center speaker would interfere - presumably because of its physical presence blocking the sound somehow? The idea of raising the center speaker for that reason sounds really goofy.
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It's not goofy if you're trying to optimize both 2 channel and multi channel. If that's not your objective I can understand your perspective. It has to do with physics according to Richard from Rives audio.
| Originally posted by cwilson Do you mean that when playing two channel - only the left and right front speakers in use - that the center speaker would interfere - presumably because of its physical presence blocking the sound somehow? The idea of raising the center speaker for that reason sounds really goofy. |
Well, moving the gigantic XS sub out from between tzucc's X1's apparently improved his sound, maybe the situation is the same here, only to a lesser extent.
The floor is slate and Rives is worried about the diffraction caused by the center speaker enclosure??!?
The solution is simple: use a good ambiance extraction processor and leave the center channel stationary and "on" all the time.
The solution is simple: use a good ambiance extraction processor and leave the center channel stationary and "on" all the time.
Much less work would be to build a "box" covered in two inch Owens 703 and cover the center with it when listening to two channel.
My very large center channel (approximately 4 feet wide by 14 inches tall by 16 inches deep) sits on the floor but more importantly, I use SigTech digital room correction to take that speaker into account for 2 channel. ZERO effect on 2 channel listening (also, my center is well behind my mains which I make up for in the processor)
My very large center channel (approximately 4 feet wide by 14 inches tall by 16 inches deep) sits on the floor but more importantly, I use SigTech digital room correction to take that speaker into account for 2 channel. ZERO effect on 2 channel listening (also, my center is well behind my mains which I make up for in the processor)
Unless the center channel has some rather interesting geometry, I fail to see how you cannot alleviate any path by which sound reflected off the center channel enclosure would eventually reach your ears. While I can appreciate the pursuit of purity, but unless your center is huge, I'm not seeing an identified problem in any appropriately treated room.
I'm not sure, but I'd bet that the large "acoustically transparent" screen does more damage to the sound than the center speaker. There are so many more important issues to worry about.
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The center speaker is a regular rectangular shape and is 13" high, 18" deep and 30" wide. The screen is motorized and will only be rolled down for HT, not 2 channel.
It's interesting how this group doesn't seem to think it is an issue but Richard, an engineer specializing in hi end AV rooms, believes it is.
He's given me 3 options if 2 channel performance is important, which it is of course otherwise I wouldn';t have hired him.
Option 1: hang the center within 12 inches of the ceiling.
Option 2: raise it when its not in use.
Option 3: move it back farther from the listening position than the mains. He said the third option is the least desired for 2 channel.
In terms of the rest of the set up, it is a dedicated room that will be heavily treated under Rives guidance/design with *a lot* of measuring and fine tuning to get it as good as possible.
| Originally posted by Mark Seaton Unless the center channel has some rather interesting geometry, I fail to see how you cannot alleviate any path by which sound reflected off the center channel enclosure would eventually reach your ears. While I can appreciate the pursuit of purity, but unless your center is huge, I'm not seeing an identified problem in any appropriately treated room. |
It's interesting how this group doesn't seem to think it is an issue but Richard, an engineer specializing in hi end AV rooms, believes it is.
He's given me 3 options if 2 channel performance is important, which it is of course otherwise I wouldn';t have hired him.
Option 1: hang the center within 12 inches of the ceiling.
Option 2: raise it when its not in use.
Option 3: move it back farther from the listening position than the mains. He said the third option is the least desired for 2 channel.
In terms of the rest of the set up, it is a dedicated room that will be heavily treated under Rives guidance/design with *a lot* of measuring and fine tuning to get it as good as possible.
Everything is an issue. If you have guests in your room, forget it, you're sound is affected, so I'd probably just give up and listen to headphones. The extra seats should probably be removed when no one is using them. The left speaker is acoustically affecting the right and vice-versa so you'll have to treat the sides of your speakers to absorb reflections. Your rears are resonating when they're not on, so they'll have to be removed for best effect. I mean, sure you can get obsessive. I knew a guy like that and he hardly ever even turned his system on, because, in his mind, it took a full hour to warm up, then he had to calibrate his projector, and by the time he had it ready to go, he was tired and wanted to go to bed. So he got a digital projector and a small, non-high-end system so he could actually use it. Of course the center channel is an issue, but it's a very small one so you have to measure just how much you want to obsess vs how much money you want to spend vs how much you just want to use and enjoy the system. A center channel with 12" of the ceiling sould suck for movies. Far more than having it down low would suck for stereo.
Well, regarding the three "options" Mr. Richard has given you, the third should be the case anyway for HT. You want front speaker equidistant from the listener, not aligned relative to the front wall. With the standard +30, 0, -30 degree L/C/R spread, and a typical room size, the center should be two feet or so behind the left and right mains. With the entire front wall and side/ceiling/floor behind the mains treated for absorption as they should be, there impact of diffraction and reflection off of the center cabinet will be very minimal.
The impact of having a center channel present would be increased if you are using dipolar or bipolar speaker designs. Are you? If so, there are some other methods which might be more appropriate.
Having the center speaker near the ceiling is a really bad no-no for HT and multichannel audio. Having it on a lift seems outrageously unecessary given the impact of its presence.
As others have said, the problems caused by having the center speaker there are way down on the list of things to be worried about. So don't worry until you have tackled everything else above it on the list. Which, by the way, would probably have that slate floor damned near the top!
The impact of having a center channel present would be increased if you are using dipolar or bipolar speaker designs. Are you? If so, there are some other methods which might be more appropriate.
Having the center speaker near the ceiling is a really bad no-no for HT and multichannel audio. Having it on a lift seems outrageously unecessary given the impact of its presence.
As others have said, the problems caused by having the center speaker there are way down on the list of things to be worried about. So don't worry until you have tackled everything else above it on the list. Which, by the way, would probably have that slate floor damned near the top!
I don't have dipole speakers.
WRT option 3, it is my understanding that this would compromise HT as well as option 1. Reason being, it is best to have all 3 front speakers the same distance to the listener. You could use your pre pro to set the center at a different distance but they are never completely accurate as I undertsand it.
I realize that the slate floor is a slight compromise but the room design which includes an area rug and a lot of ceiling diffusion/reflection will compensate for it hopefully.
I have a relatively simple solution in mind to raise the speaker that will cost very little and will likely pursue it to see if it works. If it doesn't, the center speaker will be stationary in its proper place - same height as the mains and will be the same distance to the center listening position.
WRT option 3, it is my understanding that this would compromise HT as well as option 1. Reason being, it is best to have all 3 front speakers the same distance to the listener. You could use your pre pro to set the center at a different distance but they are never completely accurate as I undertsand it.
I realize that the slate floor is a slight compromise but the room design which includes an area rug and a lot of ceiling diffusion/reflection will compensate for it hopefully.
I have a relatively simple solution in mind to raise the speaker that will cost very little and will likely pursue it to see if it works. If it doesn't, the center speaker will be stationary in its proper place - same height as the mains and will be the same distance to the center listening position.
If the front three speakers are equidistant from the primary listeing position, then the center is as a result "behind" the two mains by a couple of feet from the perspective of a cartesian mapping of the room.
Depending on the amount of toe of the left/right speakers, this will greatly minimize possible diffraction effects caused by the center. Remember, only low frequencies are omnidirectional, and the center is small compared to their wavelengths. High frequencies, on the other hand, will be relatively directional in nature when created by a monopolar speaker. The spl at the center speaker location will be greatly reduced, and I'd personally concentrate on the many larger problems faced in residential rooms before worrying about that one. In fact, with holes in the ceiling causing leak paths, and lift mechanisms to rattle, I'd have to seriously wonder if the "solution" to your center channel "problem" would cause more problems than it solves.
And again, the best solution is to do away with the stubborn "two channel" mindset, and get a processor competent enough to make the continual use of the center channel desirable.
Depending on the amount of toe of the left/right speakers, this will greatly minimize possible diffraction effects caused by the center. Remember, only low frequencies are omnidirectional, and the center is small compared to their wavelengths. High frequencies, on the other hand, will be relatively directional in nature when created by a monopolar speaker. The spl at the center speaker location will be greatly reduced, and I'd personally concentrate on the many larger problems faced in residential rooms before worrying about that one. In fact, with holes in the ceiling causing leak paths, and lift mechanisms to rattle, I'd have to seriously wonder if the "solution" to your center channel "problem" would cause more problems than it solves.
And again, the best solution is to do away with the stubborn "two channel" mindset, and get a processor competent enough to make the continual use of the center channel desirable.
Bigus,
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But that's not what option 3 is for the centre speaker. The option is to "move it back farther from the listening position than the mains", not equidistant from the listener.
BTW, I agree with you and Joel that the centre speaker is the least of the concerns. I mean, with the front speakers literally pointing towards the surrounds, what about the reflections off of those?
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If the wavelengths are physically larger than the centre speaker, they'll go right around it asthough it's not even there.
Best,
Sanjay
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| Well, regarding the three "options" Mr. Richard has given you, the third should be the case anyway for HT. You want front speaker equidistant from the listener |
BTW, I agree with you and Joel that the centre speaker is the least of the concerns. I mean, with the front speakers literally pointing towards the surrounds, what about the reflections off of those?
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| Remember, only low frequencies are omnidirectional, and the center is small compared to their wavelengths. |
Best,
Sanjay
Thunder---you paid for this guy's advice, so by all means, listen and consider carefully to every detail. He sounds like a perfectionist and that is to be respected (though I agree with Bigus, what's with the slate floor?).
At the same time, do not be afraid to tell him no. You did not pay him to be your dominatrix, you paid him to design a room. And once he's been paid, he moves onto the next project, while you are stuck with a room that may or may not be what you want.
So if you decide that you wish to keep the center channel stationary, then just tell him so and have him work around it. If he's a professional he will accept your wishes and do the best he can under those slight constraints. If he is a professional whiner, well, that would suck. He needs to be reminded who's working for whom.
At the same time, do not be afraid to tell him no. You did not pay him to be your dominatrix, you paid him to design a room.
And once he's been paid, he moves onto the next project, while you are stuck with a room that may or may not be what you want.So if you decide that you wish to keep the center channel stationary, then just tell him so and have him work around it. If he's a professional he will accept your wishes and do the best he can under those slight constraints. If he is a professional whiner, well, that would suck. He needs to be reminded who's working for whom.
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