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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
From reading thru most of the threads in this forum I have compiled a list of spkrs which posters claim are either better than, or not as good as the Rocket RS750. Where in surround sound systems, I have added the designation SSS.


Please, PLEASE don't post "I have spkr X on the list and I think it's better than the Rocket RS750." This is for informational purposes, NOT arguement! However, if anyone has comments on spkrs NOT on this list, please post.


RS750 better than:

-Paradigm Studio 100v2

-Magneplaner MG1.6

-Boston Acoustics VRM90 SSS

-Avant Garde Duo

-Energy Veritas 2.4

-JM Lab Electra 946

-ProAc Response 5

-Adire Encompass

-Diva 6.1 SSS (please Diva owners, no comment)

-DT BP2000tl SSS

-Ellis 1801

-B&W 801, 802, 803, 804 (some SSS)

-PBS Stratus Silver & Gold

-nOrh 6.9

-Eminent Tech. LFTVIII

-NHT (various discont. models inc SSS)

-Polk LSi

-Wharfedale Sapphire 87


Some mighty impressive and expensive spkrs in that list. And now:


RS750 not as good as:

-Dunleavy (suggested by David Boulet; out of business)

-Genesis (suggested by David Boulet)

-Wilson Watt/Puppy (inferred from comments by ed. of Audio Revolution)

-Revel Salon (inferred from comments by ed. of Audio Revolution)

-Infinity Overture 3 and 4


Not exactly your Rat Shack priced speakers!
 

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Interesting stats, but it's a little out of context to list them like winners and losers and such a list is subject to more controversy than IMO is good for anyone. I have a hard time thinking of speakers in terms of absolute "better thans" vs. simply individual preferences. On top of that, we've heard an awful lot from the Rocket owners here while the owners of the other brands have been somewhat scarce by comparison, so we don't have a balanced picture.


I suspect your intentions are good and you don't mean to bait anyone, but it's going to happen and understandably so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
First of all, my intention was not to bait anyone. I don't own the Rockets and have never heard them. In fact I had not heard OF them until today, when I clicked on this forum by mistake.


Second, of course this is unfair, etc. In 1970, I started working as a part time salesman at the Stereo Shop in Hartford, CT while going to Trinity College. To give some perspective: there was no home theater or VCRs, only audio; tape was all reel to reel; transistor equipment had just come out and was unreliable and sounded awful; tubes and LPs ruled the day; H.H.Scott still owned Scott, and Avery Fisher still owned Fisher.


While I was working there, Henry Kloss came out with the Advent speaker. (He only did this to get money for building his dream: a home projection system. Henry always preferred the KLH 6 to the Advents, by the way.) The Advent rapidly became the largest selling speaker in the US.


But, I had several customers who preferred the sound of the Bose 201s to the Advents, even though when you switched to the 201s, the high end simply vanished. (Bose 201 owners: this was in the early 70s; I'm sure the current Bose 201s, if the model is still made, are quite different.)


At the time MacIntosh came out with its first bookshelf speaker, which cost multiples of the Advent. The uniform consensous of everyone who worked at the store was that the Advents walked all over the Macs. Yet, many (especially Mac equipment owners) preferred the Macs. (Then there was the time when a Mac "shopper"came in the store, and I demonstrated the superiority of the Advents to the Macs, but that's another story.)


So, I fully realize how unfair my lists are. There is no accounting for tastes in A/V especially when it comes to speakers.


But, while I have your attention, I priced out the speakers listed as besting the Rockets. The editor of Audio Authority said that he could recall only 2 speaker reviews as positive as the review for the Rockets: the Wilson Watt/Puppy and the Revel Ultima Salons. (The Infinity Overtures are discontinued.)


The current iteration of the Wilson Watt/Puppy is the System 7 at $22,400. To make a surround system, you add the Wilson WATCH System Center Channel at $6950 (stand $1390) and the Wilson WATCH System Wall Mount Speakers at $6300, for a grand total of $36,650 w/out subwoofer.


The Revel Ultima Salon costs $14,200. To make a surround system, you add the Revel Ultima Voice at $4500 (stand $900), and the Revel Ultima Embrace surrounds at $5000 for a grand total of $23,700 w/out subwoofer. (A $14,000 saving over the Wilson System!)


And the closest Onix Rocket Package to the above two (in terms of surrounds), Package 2, goes for $2,100.


Hope you all find this somewhat amusing, and my apologies for a list which I readily admit is intrinsically unfair.


Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
The uniform consensous of everyone who worked at the store was that the Advents walked all over the Macs.Bob
This is interesting to hear, as I sold my MacIntosh speakers in favor of Advents. I was using a MacIntosh MC 1700 receiver at the time.
 

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I personally miss the Advents...


Loved then stacked and had them as a salesman in the mid 70's... now THOSE *were* the days...


:)


mls
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by codemarine
I have not read any direct comparisons with the B&W 801 or 802 loudspeakers. I have not read any direct comparisons (i.e. involving actually listening to the speakers) with the Inifinity Overture 3.


Furthermore, although I'm a "rocket lover" I don't find this "better-than, worse-than" list to be very constructive.


--Steve
... that the N802's are simply SPECTACULAR loudspeakers... and my personal favorite...


I've had 801's ("then" and more current)... and I always liked the 802's more... Used them for my personal benchmarking vs. Rocket.


I've decided to sell them though... and take out of mothballs my personal favorite Genesis system (G-350 Special Edition) for benchmarking vis-a-vis ONIX Strata... :)


The rest is yet to come... ;)


Wishing you all the very best...


mls
 

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Bob, can you please clarify what the point of this thread is? You claim you did not intend to bait anyone, and that you don't want to provoke argument, yet you readily admit that your list is unfair. You state it is for "informational purposes" - specifically what purposes did you have in mind?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
1) Do a search in this forum for "Rocket" and "B&W 801" and "B&W 802" to see comments. I never said that the list was as a result of direct A/B tests between the Rockets and the speakers on it.


2) There is a thread on the Infinity Overture 3s vs. the Rockets. I never said that the Infinity's were better than the Rockets as a result of a direct A/B test, and noted the inclusion therein as "maybe."


3) As to my purpose in this post, it was not to "stoke" anyone. Hence, the large number of speakers listed. See my 2d post for a further explanation. I suppose part of the reason was that after spending hours reading all the posts in this forum on the Rockets, and taking copious notes, I was affected by the very late hour, and made the post.


My apologies to anyone who was or is offended.


Bob


P.S I'm surprised that no one has asked if I ever met Henry Kloss (yes,twice; once at Advent and once at Kloss Video; also met Andy "Petite" who went on to start Boston Acoustics), or the consequences of me panning the Mac bookshelf speaker vs. the Advents to the Mac "shopper".


I, too, owned double stacked Advents, by the way. If memory serves the double Advents got a rave review in Stereophile or or the other high end audio mag, the name of which I have suddenly forgotten because my memory isn't serving in this case. Happens when you're over 50.
 

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And the point of this thread is.....?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
...that I was very, very tired at Midnight when I posted it after hours of staring at AVS Speaker Forum Posts on the Onix Rockets, and I made a mistake.


I'M SORRY. PLEASE FORGIVE ME.

THE END.
 

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If this thread is to continue, VPMS has been compared, and generally thought to be slightly better in sound, but not as good as the 750s in imaging/soundstage.


Personally, I think this thread would be fun...probably stir up alot of controversy!
 

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I don't know if having owned "stacked" Advents in the past and Rockets at present qualifies me for a reply, but I appreciate your post, Robert, and the spirit in which you presented it. "Audioenvy" by coincidence, is both a pernicious and controversy-generating subject, as well as the name of a group who offer to demo their Rocket systems to others.


I try to fly above the heated arguments that ensue from speaker comparisions because of their subjectivity, environmental specificity, and the simple fact that if you just laid down beaucoup dinero on the latest pair of nautiloid el revealo's, that you would naturally be most pissed to discover something you hadn't considered, which, at least to a few on this board, represents something of significance in terms of audio enjoyment.


My personal speaker journey began many long years ago with a modest pair of LaFayette speakers followed in succession by Marantz, Advent (stacked), JBL, ADS, Cerwin-Vega D-9 (its true), Polk (SDS), DefTech (BP2002TL) and Paradigm (Ref 100). Throughout this journey, I derived much enjoyment of my acoustic experience at each level, but I always had to confront that pesky "audioenvy" demon.


That demon is now gone and replaced by anticipation of the next session with a truly wonderful speaker that intensifies my listening enjoyment, and that of my wife, to a level that was unavailable previously.


At the end of the day this forum exists for exactly the kind of data found in your original post. Those offended should reconsider what they are doing here in the first place.
 

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Robert, no harm no foul. The Rockets are an occasional target here for their popularity, but had I done my research and read your other posts here first I would have seen that you are anything but a flame thrower. All in context, my apologies.


This turned out to be an interesting thread as I've enjoyed your musings and while you've been at this longer than I have, I can say I remember paying $900 for one of the first Hi-Fi Stereo VCR's from Panasonic.
That was my lesson in "It doesn't pay to be an early adopter." Especially interesting was your thoughts and encounters with Henry Kloss and his designs. I had a pair of fairly beat up used Larger Advents when I was getting started in the hobby which ended up being replaced by a pair of shiny new Cornwalls, but after about a year with the Cornwalls I missed my ugly Advents. While not the last word in efficiency, they were indeed a landmark design having nice sealed bass characteristics and a sweet sounding tweeter (to me) when compared to the horns and piezos so common then. Aside from the TAS "stacked Advent" tweak, during my time spent in the late 70's as a sweaty teen hanging around my local audio emporiums generally annoying salesmen like yourself, I remember hearing about people using RTR electrostat panels in place of the dome tweeter in the Advent. Did you ever get a chance to hear this configuration?


Harking back to the stacked Advent days, when I was playing around with the Rockets during the beta period one interesting configuration I tried was to stack a pair of inverted 150's on top of the 750's. The purpose was to compare the different tweeters in a switched A/B fashion (BTW I thought they compared and integrated well) but together I thought they made magic in a semi-bizarre pseudo line-array kinda way. (pic below)


It's a terrible shame, what's happened to the name Advent, KLH, and RTR. Everytime I mention my old Larger Advents or my prodigious bass producing and otherwise awesome RTR Series III's, I feel compelled to add the mention "back when they were good"!


I saw a previous post of yours mentioning that you were considering a try out of the Rockets. If you do, I do hope you enjoy their qualities as much as I have and will post here more often.
 

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Hi

I like this thread this is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm in the process of getting all new speakers for my system and All i have to go on is people preference and experience. This thread is a great starting point for me as it gives me more speaker models to work with. Right now I auditioned, martin logans, Magnepans and Paradigm Monitor 11's and to me the paradigms were the winners. No if the Rockets are said to be better than the Paradigm's that would clearly point me to them. This is a very constructive thread since he consolidated users reactions into one easy to read thread. Yes i know to take everything with a grain of salt but for me it gives me something to work with.


Thanx for the thread
 

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The "majesty" of the stacked or double Advent configuration was found in the fact that, for the first time (in the mid 70's), lows, mids and highs were somewhat united in an affordable and quasi linear fashion. If you owned the watts, this configuration could generate impressive sound pressure levels (which were very popular with musical styles of the day).


Unfortunately, unless powered by separate amps to properly allow for their combined >3ohm load, their was simply no image. Just SPL and a sense of low notes being integrated with mids and highs. Thus was our fixation and fascination with this hallowed and revered combination... and, it was affordable.


The image and soundstage of the Rockets is several dimensions removed from this bygone legacy. Left to right, up and down, and front to back they are simply breathtaking. An infinite number of stacked Advents would never approach this level of presence and sonic reality. And with impedance demands that permit great results with affordable, off the shelf receivers we find ourselves in a whole new world.


The paradox is complete in that for the first time I find myself envious of my own system. I can't express it any more simply.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by NickS
The "majesty" of the stacked or double Advent configuration was found in the fact that, for the first time (in the mid 70's), lows, mids and highs were somewhat united in an affordable and quasi linear fashion. If you owned the watts, this configuration could generate impressive sound pressure levels (which were very popular with musical styles of the day).


Unfortunately, unless powered by separate amps to properly allow for their combined >3ohm load, their was simply no image. Just SPL and a sense of low notes being integrated with mids and highs. Thus was our fixation and fascination with this hallowed and revered combination... and, it was affordable.


The image and soundstage of the Rockets is several dimensions removed from this bygone legacy. Left to right, up and down, and front to back they are simply breathtaking. An infinite number of stacked Advents would never approach this level of presence and sonic reality. And with impedance demands that permit great results with affordable, off the shelf receivers we find ourselves in a whole new world.


The paradox is complete in that for the first time I find myself envious of my own system. I can't express it any more simply.
Yes indeedy, well said Nick. We've seen a lot of good things happen to loudspeakers over the last 25-30 years. Thiele and Small defined the parameters for porting and efficiency, baffle diffraction and the narrowing of cabinets for razor sharp imaging became an understood science, cabinet resonances have been tamed by using MDF and computer modeled crossbracing vs. mass loaded plywood cabinets, and best of all...we can have it ALL now from a good selection of vendors at a fraction of the cost I might have imagined back then.


It's a good time to buy speakers.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
...that I was very, very tired at Midnight when I posted it after hours of staring at AVS Speaker Forum Posts on the Onix Rockets
Been there!


:)


Glad people are enjoying their speakers...
 

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And the point of this thread is.....?



__________________


Fantastic Marketing!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I can't even begin to remember all the speakers I've owned. I once had a chart which traced the history of changes in my various components. It got too long and complicated.


I do remember a few of my past systems spanning a period from 1965 to the present. (Wow, that's 37 years; no wonder I don't remember them all!)


I started with a KLH 11, the first "suitcase" compact system with good sound ($200; designed by Henry Kloss) and then a KLH 20 ($400), the first home compact system with great sound (Garrard Turntable, Pickering Cartridge, Amp, FM/AM Tuner with a pair of two way speakers, all in wood, again designed by Henry; boy, did I sell a ton of Model 20s!).


When I started working at the Stereo Shop in 1969, through graduation from Trinity College, the equipment went in and out fast and furiously.


One system I do remember was one of my all time favorites (along w/double stacked Advents): Mac MC275 Power Amp, Mac MR71 Tuner, Mac MI-3 Performence Indicator, Mac C22 PreAmp (all of preceding constitute the last generation of Mac tube equipment), Thorens TD-125 Turntable w/SME Series II tonearm and Ortofon Cartrige and two pairs of KLH 9 Electrostatic speakers (the second ES to be made after the Quads, I believe; designed By Victor Campos, not Henry).


Can you imagine having that set up in a college dorm room? (It was a very large room w/2 small bedrooms in one of the original Gothic Dorms: leaded stained glass windows, fireplace, window seat, etc.) Word spread around campus about the system and dozens of people whom I never met would come to the room and ask to listen to the system.


The KLH 9s cost $1140 a pair, one of the most expensive speakers made at the time. I got the whole system ultra cheap (Mac about 55% of list for Mac salesman; the rest for cost from the Stereo Shop), and like a complete idiot, I sold it.


Can you imagine what that "Mac Pack" would sell for today? Of course, at the time I had no idea Mac tube equipment would became classic, and its value would soar. (No one can predict the future except for Nostradamus.)


Check out www.AudioClassics.com if you want to see what the "Mac Pack" in excellent condition (as I keep all my equipment) goes for these days.


I first met Henry Kloss at Advent in Boston or Cambridge. He was rumpled, and appeared in a fog. When I was introduced to him, I said, "It's a pleasure to meet you, Mr.Kloss." He gave me the weakest handshake I ever had in my life, mumbled something unintelligable, and turned away.


I recall one story about Henry: that he did not have, and never had, a driver's license, and rode a bicycle to work. Whether it is true or not, I don't know.


Somehow or other, I ended up going to Kloss Video in Boston or Cambridge, after Henry left Advent, to see one of the first JVC S-VHS VCRs imported into the US. (Either I met Tom Young there, or I met him before and he invited up to Kloss Video.)


The JVC came with a Japanese Instruction Manual, and Japanese lettering on the VCR, so Henry, Tom and I spent several hours trying to figure it out. Henry was about as communicative with me at Kloss Video as he was at Advent. Essentially, all communication between Henry and me was through Tom.


Henry was a true visionary. His work at AR and KLH (Kloss, Lowe & Hoffman) advanced home audio by leaps and bounds. His dream was to make a home video projection system.


He formed Advent for that purpose, and only designed the innovative products which he did at Advent to get cash flow for his dream projector. Advent Loudspeaker, Smaller Advent Loudspeaker, Advent Rec'r, Advent Cassette Deck (Wollensack transport) w/ Dolby B Noise Reduction and CrO2 tape, and others I can't remember.


The Advent 201 Cassette Deck did two amazing things: 1) it was the first Cassette Deck that could equal or beat Reel to Reel Tape Recorders (excepting Revox and Tandberg); AND it brought Dolby Noise Reduction to tapes and the name Dolby into American households (and where would we be with Ray Dolby today?).


Henry did acheive his dream: the Kloss Video Home Projector. The stories from Tom Young about the development, manufacture, and flying all over the country to repair them are hilarious. Of course, Kloss Video went under.


I obviously have an enormous amount of respect for Henry Kloss and his acheivements. And, it is only within that context, that I say that the last part of Henry's career was less sterling than what proceeded it. His time with Cambridge Soundworks and Tivoli Audio, which he founded w/Tom DeVesto, and where he worked until his sad death.


But even in this period, Henry revealed one of his other dreams: to make the best sounding, sensitive and selective FM Radio in the world. This dream started at KLH, was continued at Advent, became dormat while he worked on his projector at Kloss Video, was resurrected at Cambridge Soundworks w/the Model 88, and culminated with the Tivoli Model One Mono Radio, the Tivoli Model Two Stereo Radio, the Tivoli Subwoofer, the Tivoli PAL, and the Tivoli CD Player, which he was working on at the time of his death.


Of the Tivoli Model Two, Tom DeVesto told me that Henry said, "I'll never design a one piece stereo FM Radio [i.e. The Model 88] again." Being a devotee of Henry, I have always had one of his products in one of my systems or in my home: KLH 6s, KLH 5s, KLH 12s.


Henry thought that the KLH 6s were better than the KLH 5s or KLH 12s; he only designed them at the urging of Lowe and Hoffman to generate income. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, Henry, who designed and engineered the Advent Speakers in a couple of days, preferred the KLH 6s to the Advents.


When at Advent, he owned KLH 6s. The Smaller Advent took considerably longer to design and enginer than full size Advent, interstingly. For all I know, he was using KLH 6s when he died.


[The list continues.] KLH 9s (Even though not designed by Henry, who didn't like the KLH 9s; hardly surprising at this point; as far as I can tell, the ONLY seaker Henry liked was the KLH 6.) Advent Speakers, Double Advent Speakers, Advent 201 Cassette Deck, Advent Rec'r, [gap for Kloss Video],

Cambridge Soundworks Model 88, Cambridge Soundworks 88CD, Tivoli Model One, and, now Tivoli Model Two w/Tivoli Subwoofer, and Tivoli CD Player arriving today.


It is sad that so many American audio companies have gone under or been bought out by "Tropicana": AR, KLH, and Advent, all started by Henry (and others); Marantz, Fisher, and Scott; Infinity and the entire Harmon group, and Harmon-Kardon itself; and even MacIntosh (owned by Clarion). Dunleavy just went under. (Too bad, WSR!)


I wonder just how many American audio companies are 20 years old AND owned by the same person or persons who founded it. Not many I bet.


Tom Young is an interesting person by the way. For those who don't know Tom, he owns and runs Cinema Source, a internet/phone order high end A/V company.


Before he started Cinema Source, Tom worked for: Kloss Video, where he helped design and build the world's first home video projector...and flew all over the US fixing them; NAD, where he helped design the MR26, and designed the MR13; Vidikron, when it first started in the US, where he modified the Italian (CRT) projectors for the US market, wrote the owner's and service manuals, and trained all Vidikron repairmen; AmPro, where he wrote the owner's and service manuals for its CRT projectors; and Cambridge Soundworks, where he again worked for his old boss, Henry Kloss. I'm sure I've forgotten some of his jobs. I have a vague recollection that Tom has something or other to do with some outfit named Outlaw Audio.


With Tom's history in mind, perhaps you can understand why, even though he sells CRT projectors at Cinema Source, he says he can not wait for the day when digital projectors equal or beat CRTs, and "We can throw all the damn CRT projectors out!"


(We're very, very close w/the TI DLP HD2 projs; and some D-ILAs. I can't wait to see projectors with the TI HD3 chip which TI is currently developing. Please, please, this is an AUDIO forum, not video; no comments please.)


No one asked about what happened with the Mac "shopper" and panning the Mac bookshelf speaker vs. the 1/4 cost Advents.


At the time, the Vice President of Mac (Farmer Frank was still President of Mac, but the Veep really ran Mac.) would travel the country visiting Mac dealerships and taking all the employees out for lavish dinners.


When available, he always ordered Chateau Lafite Rothschild 1959 (a very good year?) which ran $100 dollars a bottle in 1970. The average consumption at these dinners was a bottle per person, plus many cocktails and many aperatifs. As you might expect, everyone tended to get a bit tipsy.


He would always call the restaurant and special order zabiglione (don't even remember what it is; just remember the name) for dessert. These dinners usually ran about $400-500 per person, in 1970.


I didn't just knock the Mac speakers to the shopper, I knocked ALL of Mac as being overpriced equipment which could easily be bested by equipment at a fraction of the cost. I took delight in ridiculing Mac transistor amps for using expensive autoformers (half a transformer) rather than direct coupling, as everyone else did, destroying the amp's damping factor.


Well, being a lot drunk, I made some sarcastic comment about Mac. The veep had heard the report from the Mac shopper; at the time I had no idea that Mac even used shoppers. Frankly, I don't think anyone was supposed to know.


The veep, having consumed as much alcohol as I, took umbrage at my comment. He said, "So you think Advents are better than MacIntosh speakers, and would rather sell Advents." I do not recall my response.


I DO recall standing shaking hands w/the veep (his handshake was the polar opposite of Henry's: crushing), as he repeatedly asked me, "Do you want MacIntosh?" I finally said yes. The story has a happy ending, as we went back to the store, and I did my world famous Saul Marantz imitation.


And there was the time when the veep flew us in a small airplane to the MacIntosh factory/headquarters in Binghamton, NY, and at a very elegant restarant I suggested ordering the vegetables "family style" because they all sounded so good (guffaws all around), and we all went to a strip club where a dancer got me on the stage, put my eyeglasses in her panties, and then put her panties on my head, and I kept trying to give her my hotel room key, and I fell asleep in the bathtub full of water to wake up the next morning, hung over, in cold water. (Quite a shock!)


And then there was the time we all went up to Boston for an Audio show, went to a Mac gala dinner, consumed way too much alcohol, as always, and I was pulled over by a Policeman doing 90 MPH on the Mass Pike in my first car, a 1968 Dodge Dart w/slant 6 225hp engine (gold, 4 door if you must know; cost a little over $1k).


I pulled over to the left side of the road as it was the first time I had pulled over and didn't know what to do.


He performed a field sobreity test on me which I'm sure I flucked. Noticing my CT plates, he asked what I was doing in MA and I told him about the audio show. We ended up discussing audio equipment for a half hour.


As we parted he said, "Keep your speed down...and, by the way, when you're driving drunk, keep your window down [it was winter], and turn your radio turned up loud, or you'll fall asleep at the wheel." (This was 1970 when drunk driving was socially acceptable.)


And then there was the time when...


ENOUGH! The memories are flooding back, and I have to stop somewhere. I hope you have found this nostalgic or informative or amusing, as I hunt and peck away.


The story has an unhappy ending, though. In 1972, I graduated from Trinity College and left the Stereo Shop and the world of audio which I loved, and made the horrific mistake of going to law school, which, together with the practice of law until I retired early in 1998, constituted a complete waste of almost a quarter century of my life.


I should have stayed in audio; I would have made less money but had what is an increasily rare commodity these days: job happiness. And I didn't even go to law school to make money; I went to law school to avoid "real" life, and getting a "real job."


Good Night, I type almost 25 hours to the minute from when I started this now infamous thread. (Gee, I hope I didn't post anything objectionable this time, given the late hour.)


Bob
 
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