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Discussion Starter #1
With the recent UFW-12 driver web snafu and subsequent upgraded driver resolution, I'm thinking the Velodyne SPL1200r may be the safer, if not better bet for a couple of hundred dollars more. Since there are only pics and specs and reputations to go on for the UFW-12, as it has yet to reach the public, I was hoping those of you that know better than I could help me get off the fence... my head hurts trying to sort out which is the better feature function set. In short I come up with these differences:


Both are:

Sealed

12"

have EQ functionality (I'm getting R-DES w/ the UFW)


UFW-12

larger 20" cube

Upgraded replacement woofer intended for Reference grade sub

proported 120 db flat response output

600 watt amp

4-band manual EQ

Promising
http://www.**********/products_produc...rs&product=8.1


Velodyne spl1200R

smaller 15x15x17

6-band Auto in-room eq

selectable DSP house curve presets

1000 watt amp

Servo controlled

Readily available
http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/pro...ecs/SPL-R.html


My room is 14'x14'x8', closed. w/ bass traps. Please lend me your thoughts.


Thanks!
 

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Are either of these subs actually shipping? Pretty tough to give a recommendation on subs this new. I doubt anyone has heard either of these.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NKOTB
proported 120 db flat response output
Who has measured this? Can I see more specific results than just a number?


(Or if I got it wrong, please enlight me, what does "proported" mean? Dictionary doesn't know it.)
 

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it should be purported (supposed)


both should perform quite well for their size. I'm partial to Onix and Mark Schifter products but don't eliminate the Velo on my account, wait for the UFW-12 to come and try both, or just buy the Velo now.
 

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Quote:
what does "proported" mean?
I thought with you being a boat buff, you would know Ilkka? Ok I'll tell you...It's a port with a prop and propeller in front of it... that acts as a turbo. :rolleyes: Any other questions? ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka
Who has measured this? Can I see more specific results than just a number?


(Or if I got it wrong, please enlight me, what does "proported" mean? Dictionary doesn't know it.)
I think he meant "purported" which could also be "Assumed" or "expected".


There was a graph posted on AV123 several months ago, but as the driver has changed, that graph is irrelevant.


The final driver was taken from what was going to be a new subwoofer in the reference line.


The UFW-12's are going to ship as soon as these drivers are installed, so perhaps by mid September some additional info will be available. There is a gent on AV123 (Rob_b) who has an SVS Ultra, a Velo HGS-15 and has a UFW-12 due in the first shipment. He is going to do his own listening comparisons.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn
I thought with you being a boat buff, you would know Ilkka? Ok I'll tell you...It's a port with a prop and propeller in front of it... that acts as a turbo. :rolleyes: Any other questions? ;)
Oh that! Of cource my boat has one, actually two of them. Makes it go _really_ fast when I want to. :D


Thanks BR Steve! ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
I think he meant "purported" which could also be "Assumed" or "expected".


There was a graph posted on AV123 several months ago, but as the driver has changed, that graph is irrelevant.


The final driver was taken from what was going to be a new subwoofer in the reference line.


The UFW-12's are going to ship as soon as these drivers are installed, so perhaps by mid September some additional info will be available. There is a gent on AV123 (Rob_b) who has an SVS Ultra, a Velo HGS-15 and has a UFW-12 due in the first shipment. He is going to do his own listening comparisons.
Yes I thought he meant that graph. If I remember correctly it showed around 112 dB @ 20 Hz. MLS said it was measured at 1/2 meter and there was still more "gas" left. Or the line MLS said few days ago about the new ref driver, "122dB in room...".


I find it very hard to believe any of these "measurements". Old driver, new driver, it doesn't make a big difference. After all it's just physics, 12", 20" cube, 1000 W... Actually I'm very pleased if it can break the 100 dB limit at 20 Hz, remember that for example the Velodyne DD-18 can pull out "only" 93 dB according to KY.


Well we know for sure when Ed gets one of these babies under some hard GP session. :)
 

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Ilkka said:
Actually I'm very pleased if it can break the 100 dB limit at 20 Hz, remember that for example the Velodyne DD-18 can pull out "only" 93 dB according to KY.


QUOTE]


What's KY?
 

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Quote:
Makes it go _really_ fast when I want to.

Thanks BR Steve!
I try to be of help when I can Br Ilkka :eek: :) I knew you knew.
Quote:
I find it very hard to believe any of these "measurements". Old driver, new driver, it doesn't make a big difference. After all it's just physics, 12", 20" cube, 1000 W... Actually I'm very pleased if it can break the 100 dB limit at 20 Hz, remember that for example the Velodyne DD-18 can pull out "only" 93 dB according to KY. Well we know for sure when Ed gets one of these babies under some hard GP session.
Good point! Hey I forget...Does Ed have this slotted for review? I hope he does though.
 

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Quote:
What's KY?
Do you want me to answer that Ilkka? :D :D
 

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Please do, in case Ilkka is AFK
 

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OK, those reviews are already read, and I'm hoping for a number 4 with some SVS and DD1812 numbers


But I've never really thought of that the DD18 doesn't put out any more SPL then a PB10 at 20hz.


Is really SPL the right way to judge how a sub will be able to fill up a room with bass?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManicMiner
OK, those reviews are already read, and I'm hoping for a number 4 with some SVS and DD1812 numbers
I don't think KY is making the part 4? Although some other review from SVS product is "coming". Atleast so I've been told.

Quote:
But I've never really thought of that the DD18 doesn't put out any more SPL then a PB10 at 20hz.
Well, numbers are a cold fact. Although this only applies with continuous sine tones. With those "boinker" signals (more like the dynamic output) as KY calls them, DD-18 outclasses PB10 easily.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn
I try to be of help when I can Br Ilkka :eek: :) I knew you knew.


Good point! Hey I forget...Does Ed have this slotted for review? I hope he does though.
I know that MLS has promised one for Ed when they are ready. I'm sure Ed has or makes the slot. ;)


Actually I'm too very tempted on ordering one, but since my PB12-Ultra arrives tomorrow, it has to wait. :)
 

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I heard a pair, well actually 2 pair, of UFW-12 at the AV123 Colorado Get Together. They were in a huge room. Maybe 25' x 50'. You could definitately hear them but you didn't feel them. They are big boxes but they're pretty. :D They had the rosewood with black paino tops. NICE! They were paired with Ref 3.0? and Rocket Onix RS1000?. The Rockets were being run as small speakers. I'd assume the Ref's were also.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NKOTB
In short I come up with these differences:


Both are:

Sealed

12"

have EQ functionality (I'm getting R-DES w/ the UFW)


UFW-12

larger 20" cube

Upgraded replacement woofer intended for Reference grade sub

proported 120 db flat response output

600 watt amp

4-band manual EQ

Promising
http://www.**********/products_produc...rs&product=8.1


Velodyne spl1200R

smaller 15x15x17

6-band Auto in-room eq

selectable DSP house curve presets

1000 watt amp

Servo controlled

Readily available
http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/pro...ecs/SPL-R.html


My room is 14'x14'x8', closed. w/ bass traps. Please lend me your thoughts.


Thanks!
Two specs jump out to me as wrong:

1st, UFW-12 is not 600 watts, last I heard it is 1,000 watts RMS 1,600 watts peak.

2nd, No where have I seen any mention of the Velo SPL 1200R being servo controlled. Maybe I've over looked this a thousand times now, but I see no mention of servo anywhere along side the SPL R series of subs. Dynamic Driver Control System-yes, servo-no.


The Velodyne is already a proven performer, yet products from AV123 regularly offer a good bang for the buck. If I were you, I'd wait to read some side by side's from people who will have both Velodyne and UFW subs, also some people will have SVS and UFW to A/B as well. Seeing how the UFW-12 should be shipping in ~3-4 weeks, I'd wait. Or get both subs your self and let everyone here know your thoughts on both. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thank you all for your input (and spelling help). It's good to see that others are skeptical too.


Fpar95, as to your corrections, I thought, buried in the AV123 UFW discussion, the 1000 watts for the ufw has been since corrected to 600 or so. Regarding the servo control on the SPL, take a look at the Velo secs, 6th one down "Digital Dynamic Driver Control with Current-Sensing Servo"... Sounds like it's got one of some sorts... http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/pro...ecs/SPL-R.html


I find it interesting that two of these blockbuster UFW-12's @ the colorado gathering didn't wow anymore than they did... Hmmm


If anyone has both coming for reviews, or orders both please update this thread. Any further speculation would be greatly appreciated and enjoyed!


Thanks Ya'll!
 

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The "current sensing servo" is really more of a sophisticated limiter than a true servo-feedback system. Only the HGS and DD series are true servos (analog and digital, respectively).


While these are fairly comparable subwoofers, the internal volume advantage clearly goes to the much larger UFW-12 - it could have about 2X the internal volume of the SPL1200R, and more cabinet volume does help with sensitivity and output.


With the new driver being in limited supply, any review of the UFW-12 will probably take a back seat to satisfying existing orders, etc. I'm sure user reports will start filtering in, and the owner of the PC-Ultra and DD-15 will be a good source of information, with all three in the same room.

Quote:
Is really SPL the right way to judge how a sub will be able to fill up a room with bass?
You want to look at two things:


1) distortion-limited output:


The distortion limited output tells you how loud the sub can play at a given frequency before distortion exceeds a pre-set limit. I use 10% because according to Nousaine, 10% THD is about the point where BL (motor strength) has fallen to 70% of maximum, and the suspension stiffness has risen to 4X that of resting. Again according to TN, these values represent the approximate maximum linear operating limits of the subwoofer.


It should go without saying that keeping THD below 10% during actual listening conditions is the ultimate goal. The 10% THD output limit is merely a convenient way to compare the relative output capabilities of various subwoofers. The concept here is that if a subwoofer has very high output (at any given frequency) before THD reaches 10%, then you will probably never reach that point under normal listening conditions and it will always sound clean. OTOH, if a subwoofer has very low output (at a given frequency) before THD reaches 10%, then you are far more likely to exceed 10% THD under normal use, and this will manifest itself as audible doubling, etc.


2) output compression curves:


This type of analysis has been done by Yates, myself, AV Talk, SVS, Seaton Sound, etc. This is a measure of the maximum FR sweep volume before the subwoofer starts to compress the lowest frequencies and go non-linear. Unless the amp limiters are particularly conservative, THD is likely exceeding 10% at this point, and the subwoofer is - by definition - being overdriven.


As a user, if you start to notice obvious compression of bass peaks and a loss of deep extension during playback, you are definitely pushing things too far. It's all about matching the capabilities of your subwoofer with your preferred playback level.


The 20-40 Hz bandwidth by far represents the largest engineering challenge with respect to minimizing distortion and compression; the 40-80 Hz bandwidth is a piece of cake in comparison. And this really just speaks to bandwidth linearity; how well the first octave stacks up to the second octave (with respect to THD and compression) is one of the best overall indicators of how a subwoofer will subjectively perform.
 
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