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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I own a Ruby now for 3 years and the bulb becomes a bit dim. So, I thought let's see what has happened in the meantime...


The little review will continue over the next days, covering my impression step by step. It is totall subjective and your resluts may vary. My cinema has a light-controlled room and a 4.2m wide screen.


So...what I am looking after is:


- brightness

- colour

- Gamma

- shaprness

- contrast,

- sound

- smoothness of motions

- comfort


So, let's start with brithness, alwaysi in high lamp mode:

1. Planar PD8150

2. HD750

3. Ruby

4. VW80


The last two are currently quiet close, maybe the same. The PLanar really shines and the JD750 is very near to the Planar.


Colour

1. Ruby

2. Planar

3. VW80

4. HD750


I tried to dial in all Oj to a very natural "look", I love the xenon-lamp in the ruby, it really gives you a very natural experience. The PLanar is very near, the Vw80 as well. I canÄt stand the look of the HD750, I really tried, but did not like it, even in THX-Mode.


Gamma: Totoally subjective, but how are shadows rendered and brightness of the picture on my screen (yours my be different) and how fleixble can I adhjust it:


1. Ruby

2. VW80

3. PD8150

4. HD750


Again, the HD 750 can be very "dark" in shadows for example


Sharpness:

1. PD8150

2. VW80

3. HD750

4. Ruby


Clearly, the HD750 is very close or as sharp as the VW80, both are significantly sharper than the Ruby. But I feel that they have an artificially over-sharpened look sometimes while the PD8150 has a very, very clear and sharp look. Very 3D, very direkt as if you would have a glossy TFT instead of a normal. It look simply more natural.


Contrast:

1. Pd8150

2. HD750

3. VW80

4. Ruby


The Contrast of the 8150 in a scene is simply super. Even if the HD750 might have the higher specs, the picture has not the directness and this 3D-Contrast of the planar.


Sound of Silence:

1. VW80

2. Ruby

3. HD750

4. PD8150


The HD750 is in normal lamp mode as silent as the Sonys, but in Lamp mode high becomes much louder.


Smoothness of pictur e in motions:

1. VW80

2. PD8150

3. HD750

4. Ruby


The VW 80 is simply very, very good in coming up with smooth motions and you can adopt it in a way, that it still looks like cinema.


Comfort (Zoom / Lens shift):

1. Ruby, VW80, HD750

4. PD8150


Soooooo.....DLP has really something and I was very happy with my Ruby. A DLP with Xenon-Lamp...does anyone know one which cost less than 50000$ ?


Best Regards


Frank
 

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So am I to assume you bought all these just to find out which one you like, are they on loan, or are you a dealer?


Just curious as most dealers don't let new projectors out on loan around here.


I know the JVC had some extreme tweaks that made a big difference. You should check out the thread here at AVS to better calibrate.


Thanks Joey
 

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So to invert your ratings into scores:


8150 (20 points )

VW 80 (19 points)

Ruby (16 points)

JVC 750 (14 points)


After all the reading I've done your test needs more applications, because the JVC has clear, proven, measurable advantages in areas.
 

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Thanks for the great effort. Like to see comparison on areas like screen uniformity. My VW80 has some light corners issues in black scene but not always. Guess DLP still excels in that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda /forum/post/15566366


I know the JVC had some extreme tweaks that made a big difference. You should check out the thread here at AVS to better calibrate.

For THX mode, the major thing that is needed is to D65 balance RGB to get the correct white point and greyscale. The other THX mode parameters are all fixed, but very well calibrated from the factory. Amazingly good OOTB settings in fact (except for the white point). Once the white point is done I find the skin tones to be amazingly accurate. As Tom Huffman has mentioned, JVC went from being one of the worst manufacturers as far as color accuracy (RS1) to one of the best (RS20).


OOTB black and white uniformity are also excellent and closing in on DLP levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I need to go to work now, I will try to convert what I see in a point sceme...and it will be quiet conserative, I am german...


And yes, I agree that the HD750 has nearly no issues in the corner, like DLP.


And no, I am not a dealer, I got them to loan in my cinema or I bought them with a return right of 2 weeks.


Be always aware of my Room and the hige screen-size. That is important. a VW80 with open iris gives me nearly perfect blacks already as the lumens are so small at such a big screen.
 

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From my point of view your screen is much too big for all of these projectors.

I measured my own HD750 up to 900 lumens with high lamp, open iris and minimum distance to screen. Even this will give you only roughly 8.5 foot lamberts with a new lamp. So after a few hundred hours it gets really dim.


Personally I change the lamp once I fall below the 9 fL range, because by then it is just too dim to be enjoyable.


The Planar is advertised with up to 1000 lumens, but I've seen real world numbers between 500-1000, not sure what it really delivers @ D65.


Anyway, I am scratching my head over some of your results.

The Ruby with a 3 year old lamp is as bright as the new VW80??

Or do you have a new lamp for the Ruby?


Not sure what you exactly mean with Gamma, shadow detail and how the HD750 could get last place on this. With its large on/off contrast, shadow detail is an area where the JVC are really good. And the gamma is highly adjustable for white or R,G,B with a nice equalizer.


Also the JVCs are known for a softer, filmlike, analog look.

Usually the complaint people have is that they want _more_ sharpness instead of complaining about too much (artificially) sharpness on the JVC.


But I guess everyone has his personal preferences...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoppo /forum/post/15569517


From my point of view your screen is much too big for all of these projectors.

I measured my own HD750 up to 900 lumens with high lamp, open iris and minimum distance to screen. Even this will give you only roughly 8.5 foot lamberts with a new lamp. So after a few hundred hours it gets really dim.


Personally I change the lamp once I fall below the 9 fL range, because by then it is just too dim to be enjoyable.


The Planar is advertised with up to 1000 lumens, but I've seen real world numbers between 500-1000, not sure what it really delivers @ D65.


Anyway, I am scratching my head over some of your results.

The Ruby with a 3 year old lamp is as bright as the new VW80??

Or do you have a new lamp for the Ruby?


Not sure what you exactly mean with Gamma, shadow detail and how the HD750 could get last place on this. With its large on/off contrast, shadow detail is an area where the JVC are really good. And the gamma is highly adjustable for white or R,G,B with a nice equalizer.


Also the JVCs are known for a softer, filmlike, analog look.

Usually the complaint people have is that they want _more_ sharpness instead of complaining about too much (artificially) sharpness on the JVC.


But I guess everyone has his personal preferences...

I have my Planar pd8130 firing onto an 11.5 Ft wide visible area screen, brightness at even that size is not an issue!

As to the 'real world' lumens specified from 500 to 1000 for the Planar, that is @ D65.

Incidently during the final stages of construction I was using my old sharp z10K with 850 hours on the lamp as a test display it had no issues either, in fact I ran it in a low brightness high contrast mode!.

maybe our light controlled room enviroments are having an effect but I haven't found the need to measure FtL levels

I for one am inclined to believe what Multiblitz is seeing.
 

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Oggythemoggy, this only shows that there are different frustration tolerances in regards to brightness. :)


Are you using a high gain screen?


Besides my JVC HD750 I still have a Sharp Z12000 with around 800 hours on the lamp which I use exclusively for my xbox & playstation. In high contrast mode with iris closed I would never use it on an 11ft screen let alone 13.7ft like the big screen that multiblitz has. Even with a new lamp it would just not be bright enough for me.


For my HD750 I have a light controlled and completely blackened out dedicated room. Nevertheless there is a huge difference between watching with iris open at up to 900 lumens @ D65 or with only half of it with iris at -15. I prefer the extra punch on my 9.2 ft screen.
 

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I had a Planar 8150 demonstrated in my local store about 2 months ago together with the latest Da-Lite Joe Kane's Affinity 92" screen. Even under the Standard lamp mode ( as opposed to the Economy mode), the picture was unacceptably dim, and the intra-scene contrast was unimpressive. A Pioneer clone of the previous generation of JVC RS2 looked much brighter with better intra-scene contrast on the same screen running the same Blu-ray disc (Ice-Age). Pioneer may have done something special to the RS2 to make it excel in such an obvious way. Of course, that's just my own opinion.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoppo /forum/post/15574886


Oggythemoggy, this only shows that there are different frustration tolerances in regards to brightness. :)


Are you using a high gain screen?


Besides my JVC HD750 I still have a Sharp Z12000 with around 800 hours on the lamp which I use exclusively for my xbox & playstation. In high contrast mode with iris closed I would never use it on an 11ft screen let alone 13.7ft like the big screen that multiblitz has. Even with a new lamp it would just not be bright enough for me.


For my HD750 I have a light controlled and completely blackened out dedicated room. Nevertheless there is a huge difference between watching with iris open at up to 900 lumens @ D65 or with only half of it with iris at -15. I prefer the extra punch on my 9.2 ft screen.

Flat white painted canvas DIY curved screen!

pictures to follow in a future construction thread

Also using a panamorph UH380
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by krellthiel /forum/post/15575018


the picture was unacceptably dim, and the intra-scene contrast was unimpressive.

Of course, that's just my own opinion.

As I have stated with in other threads, brightness was one of the attributes I liked about the planar, as to Intra scene contrast it is about the best I have seen in that price range.

Still.. each to their own
 

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"As Tom Huffman has mentioned, JVC went from being one of the worst manufacturers as far as color accuracy (RS1) to one of the best (RS20)."


Really? Could you point me to where he says that?


I stopped following the RS20 cal thread earlier this week, but I just looked through the more recent posts and didn't see it.


Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The discussion about brightness: I hear you. Itmay be right, that I would love a 2000 lumen pj and once I saw it with my screen, there would be no way back. But I don't have one here.


Therefore I can only evaluate very subjective: What is tolerable ( I would buy the pj even though it needs improvement) , what not, which pj is in relative terms to each e.g. ons is brighter than the other.


I will do tonight a second viewing round to re-assure my results and than I will start to convert it in a point scheme, which is, again, totally subjetive.


I guess I will use the following schema:


- 0-20 points scheme,

- Everything under 10 points: barely accepatble, I would not buy the pj for my room and my screen

- 10-12 points: It is OK

- 13-17 point: good- very good

- 18-19 points: Excellent

- 20 perfection (e.g. on noise: You don't hear anything)


That is all again based on my experience level. I have never seen a SIM2 or a Christie or anything like that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
OK, I did a second round and the results become much clearer now for me:


So, let's start with brigthness, always in high lamp mode:

1. Planar PD8150 - 15 Points

2. HD750 - 14 Points

3. Ruby - 10 Points

4. VW80 - 9 Points


The last two are currently quiet close, maybe the same. The PLanar really shines and the JD750 is very near to the Planar.


Colour

1. Ruby - 16 point

2. Planar - 16 point - not so natural as the Ruby, but much more saturated, really kicking

3. VW80 - 15 point

4. HD750- 12 point


I tried to dial in all Oj to a very natural "look", I love the xenon-lamp in the ruby, it really gives you a very natural experience. The PLanar is very near, the Vw80 as well. I canÄt stand the look of the HD750, I really tried, but did not like it, even in THX-Mode.


Gamma: Totally subjective, but how are shadows rendered and brightness of the picture on my screen (yours my be different) and how fleixble can I adhjust it:


1. Ruby - 16

2. VW80 - 16

3. PD8150 - 15

4. HD750 - 12


Again, the HD 750 can be very "dark" in shadows for example


Sharpness:

1. PD8150 - 17 - it is a very natural sharpness, no ringing, no unsharp mask you see simply a lot of details.

2. VW80 - 16

3. HD750 - 16

4. Ruby - 9


Clearly, the HD750 is very close or as sharp as the VW80, both are significantly sharper than the Ruby. But I feel that they have an artificially over-sharpened look sometimes while the PD8150 has a very, very clear and sharp look. Very 3D, very direkt as if you would have a glossy TFT instead of a normal. It look simply more natural.


Contrast:

1. Pd8150 - 17 in some scenes the black could be blacker, but overal the in picture contrast is marvelous ( I switched dynmic black out as is consumes to much brightness)

2. HD750 - 16

3. VW80 - 14

4. Ruby - 10


The Contrast of the 8150 in a scene is simply super. Even if the HD750 might have the higher specs, the picture has not the directness and this 3D-Contrast of the planar.


Sound of Silence:

1. VW80 - 17

2. Ruby - 17

3. HD750 - 15

4. PD8150 - 10


The HD750 is in normal lamp mode as silent as the Sonys, but in Lamp mode high becomes much louder.


Smoothness of pictur e in motions:

1. VW80 - 16

2. PD8150 - 14

3. HD750 - 14

4. Ruby - 14


The VW 80 is simply very, very good in coming up with smooth motions and you can adopt it in a way, that it still looks like cinema.


Comfort (Zoom / Lens shift):

1. Ruby, VW80, HD750 - 16

4. PD8150 - 10


Final ranking (again, based on the weighting of the factors above strongly on picture quality which is important to me, your weighting of these factors may be different):


1. Planar 8150

2. VW80

3. HD750

4. Ruby


I woudl not have exchanged the Ruby with the HD750 as I can't stand the colours of the HD750. The VW80 is a superior machine to the Ruby in every respect if the brightness is fine for you, but the PLanar is a must see (I had it with the wide-angle optic). And I am coming from 3 yaers SRXD...believe me, this result surprises me as well.
 

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Can you snap a few pics of the projectors together? I'd like to se the actual VW80 and HD750 side by side for comparison. Please don't say you don't have a digital camera or cell phone!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/15575546


"As Tom Huffman has mentioned, JVC went from being one of the worst manufacturers as far as color accuracy (RS1) to one of the best (RS20)."


Really? Could you point me to where he says that?


I stopped following the RS20 cal thread earlier this week, but I just looked through the more recent posts and didn't see it.


Thanks

Hi Noah, his review and discussion starts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post15521370


He started off by saying, "Well, either my client lucked out and just got a good unit, or you guys have got unrealistic expectations for this display. The RS20 is one of the best-measuring displays I have ever encountered. It is like a Pioneer Kuro Elite, except it is a front projector. I simply can find no grounds to criticize this thing, other than of course the fact that the CMS is broken. However, the THX mode on this unit was so good that custom color tweaks were barely necessary."


He mentioned that it measured almost identical to Kris Deering's RS20 which is also very similar to my RS20 and I think others have reported the same thing. Of course as soon as I posted how consistent the OOTB settings seem to be I received a PM with a chromaticity diagram that was off significantly in green so there is some variability. I'm hoping that the person who sent the PM will post it in the calibration thread so people know that there can be variance and it's something they need to check and not assume that THX mode is always accurate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Sure, I have a digital camera, but first of all I do not believe in screenshots, there are way to many parameter in metering and in raw-conversion alone to get a fair screenshot-comparson. I can make you a picture where the VW80 looks as black and bright as the HD750, but in realty clearly the HD750 has the blackest blacks of all of the pj above and is a brighter machine than the VW80 (in Lamp mode "high"). I can do a raw-conversion with setting the white.balance in a way, that the colours of the HD750 looks better than the VW80, when in reality it is the other way around. And the worst option of all: I let the automatic in the camera decide all of these parameter, that for sure will end in worthless results. And finally: Before spending hours to prove something which I don't have to, I prefer to play with my 4 year old son.


As I stateed, I got a calibrated unit from the dealer. I don't want to argue with the findings of anyone, I simply wanted to share some of my observation in my room and for my preference. It is not about me being right and you being wrong. It is about sharing experience and help others who are on the same search as I am.


Some subjective, personal eperiences regardings "specs": On Audio, I am very active in the high-end scene for more than two decates. We learned early, that a linear frequency from 20-20000hz can be helpful, but does not mean too much. The same with THD-numbers and many technical measurements. You learned that you can measure some things and it is helpful to see that mnimum standards are fulfilled, but you learned as well that you simply have to listen. In the case of these PJs all I can say is: I understand now why Sim2, Christie, Runco and many others are so behind DLP. I guess what I LOVE is this 3d-Look, which comes across very natural. If this is the high-ansi-contrast or the MTF-function: I don't know. And I don't care. I trust only what I see.


To make it easier to understand for those who know Photography: On Photography, you would say, that the Planar has a "leica"or "Zeiss/Hasselblad"-Look vs the Non-DLP have a Canon-Look. It means more micro-contrast, more-sharpness, the "POP", the "3D" many have described plus very good colour saturation in a very natural way. I just sold my complete Canon-Professional Equipment and went to Sony as they now have the great Zess.Lenses. I am not sure, if the ANSI-Contrast for PJ is the only KPI which measures this, but if it is, than I am an ANSI-Contrast-Believer through this comparison.


By the way: Read as well the comments on that

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1106210


...somewhere it has been stated that the HD750 has a low Ansi-contrast of down to 140 (don't beat me up, look at the thread) and Alan has measured on the Sim2 Lumis as a DLP a Ansi of 1100). That may or may not explain why the JVC has this great black levels, but not this 3D-Look. The reasons could be in the very differnt designs of the light-engines, filter-paths, elemnts which you have in the "signal-path" of light in the case of SRXD/D-ILA. If all of that is measureable, especially in the time-domain (so how well do you switch from one frma to the next): I have no idea.


And again: I liked my Ruby. This comparison was not a religious question for me (DLP vs JVC/Son), I simply wanted to understand what is possible three years later. The picture of the Planar is so much better than the Ruby that I am now eager to learn what else is possible. In High-End-Audio we oftenly made the point, that a very good eqipment should allow you to have a holographic experience where your brain does not have to work hard, the music should be simply there. In the case of the PLanar it is similar: Instead watching a screen, you have sometimes like in "IRON MAN" the experience you are IN THE MOVIE and YOU are flying over the ocean in the night, it is like a big simulator (instead watching TV). You heart pumps faster.


If a machine would be quieter (than the PLanar), has even more brightness, better black levels within a scene and a bit more precise colour (going into the direction of the Ruby) that would be 20/20 machine and if I understood everything right, the Lumis is this machine. To spend 6 times more for the Lumis is crazy, but the picture quality of the PLanar is so addicting in many ways, that an even stronger drug into this direction is worth the money in my mind. It would be pure adrenalin.
 

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Multiblitz, I was actually asking if you could take a few pics of the actual projectors and not the screen shots. Can you snap a few pics of the JVC and the VW80? Next to each other if possible. I would like to see the physical look of the two compared. I agree that screen shots are not helpful. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hmmm, I packaged them already, I need to send them back tomorrow. The HD750 is a bit smaller overall than the VW80, both are two very elegant looking units. The planar, well...not my design-taste, but ok. All three are more or less phyiscally in a similar size-class, the sony being the largest but as well flattest in physical size. The VW80 is a bit like a smaller brother of the Ruby if you know the Vw100.


Actually I am on fire now with DLP...I guess I will actually buy a Lumis now, if I get a good deal on that one. My only hint is: If you plan to soend the money, you should actually see these three pjs yourself in your home and you wll see that you night have a preference which surprise you...I was certainly surprised to come ou with the result.
 
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