Runco PFP-11 or Faroudja NRS?
- Status
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Husker1,
I have both (just got a new NR) and will post my own findings on a CRT unit shortly with both running at 720p. So far the Runco is better on film and the Faroudja on video. It depends on what you watch. Even with firmware 2.4, the Faroudja CBE interferes with things and Animation mode does NOT turn it off completely like Faroudja claims it should. There is still shimmering, Y/C delays, etc.
Some will downplay these things, saying that they are only apparent on Toy Story and on video patterns if you look hard, but the chroma bug and the moth eaten reds (which the NR with it's CBE and Y/C delay creates) is more than that. It's more than just bleeding reds on sharp transitions. A lot more. It robs ALL DVDs of some color saturation - as an experiment look at a DVD player with the chroma bug and one without, w/o going through any processor. Look at color saturations. Funny how I can plug a DVD player like my RP-91 which does not have a chroma bug into the NR and have a dirty signal come out the other end. I'm just very anal and a perfectionist. The Runco does not mess around with the incoming signal, the Faroudja still does. It's greatly improved, but still there unfortunately. If the Faroudja NR could turn off CBE completely, fix ALL Y/C delays, and do some other things it would kick ASS. But at the moment it doesn't. For most people it's more than adequate - in fact it's quite good. You aren't going to notice things as much on a 50 inch plasms or RPTV as you will on a CRT projecting on a 6 foot screen. So, it depends how picky you are, your setup, and what your viewing habits are.
Also what rate would you run it at?
Bottom line for now is if you strictly watch film DVDs (like myself), the Runco wins hands down. For a mixture, go with the NR, but you will sacrifice something. It all depends on the user. With the Runco you get crappier video de-interlacing and with the NR you still get Y/C delays and the CBE (which like I said is never completely turned off) which cause the above mentioned problems. Both have +s and -s. It's up to you to decide what is best for YOU and your viewing habits.
In any case, if you can, look for yourself at both. That is the BEST advice. Just because there are more NRs sold than Runcos means nothing. More popular does not imply better. McDonalds food is popular too. So be your own judge, read all the posts here on the Runco AND the NR and look around for yourself. I know plenty of people with Runco PFPs that refuse to post to this board or don't care to. There are definitily more NR posts here, but that means nothing really. Most of them are about all the problems with the NR. Some people are never happy with anything judging from some of the posts I read.
Bogdan
I have both (just got a new NR) and will post my own findings on a CRT unit shortly with both running at 720p. So far the Runco is better on film and the Faroudja on video. It depends on what you watch. Even with firmware 2.4, the Faroudja CBE interferes with things and Animation mode does NOT turn it off completely like Faroudja claims it should. There is still shimmering, Y/C delays, etc.
Some will downplay these things, saying that they are only apparent on Toy Story and on video patterns if you look hard, but the chroma bug and the moth eaten reds (which the NR with it's CBE and Y/C delay creates) is more than that. It's more than just bleeding reds on sharp transitions. A lot more. It robs ALL DVDs of some color saturation - as an experiment look at a DVD player with the chroma bug and one without, w/o going through any processor. Look at color saturations. Funny how I can plug a DVD player like my RP-91 which does not have a chroma bug into the NR and have a dirty signal come out the other end. I'm just very anal and a perfectionist. The Runco does not mess around with the incoming signal, the Faroudja still does. It's greatly improved, but still there unfortunately. If the Faroudja NR could turn off CBE completely, fix ALL Y/C delays, and do some other things it would kick ASS. But at the moment it doesn't. For most people it's more than adequate - in fact it's quite good. You aren't going to notice things as much on a 50 inch plasms or RPTV as you will on a CRT projecting on a 6 foot screen. So, it depends how picky you are, your setup, and what your viewing habits are.
Also what rate would you run it at?
Bottom line for now is if you strictly watch film DVDs (like myself), the Runco wins hands down. For a mixture, go with the NR, but you will sacrifice something. It all depends on the user. With the Runco you get crappier video de-interlacing and with the NR you still get Y/C delays and the CBE (which like I said is never completely turned off) which cause the above mentioned problems. Both have +s and -s. It's up to you to decide what is best for YOU and your viewing habits.
In any case, if you can, look for yourself at both. That is the BEST advice. Just because there are more NRs sold than Runcos means nothing. More popular does not imply better. McDonalds food is popular too. So be your own judge, read all the posts here on the Runco AND the NR and look around for yourself. I know plenty of people with Runco PFPs that refuse to post to this board or don't care to. There are definitily more NR posts here, but that means nothing really. Most of them are about all the problems with the NR. Some people are never happy with anything judging from some of the posts I read.
Bogdan
Joined
·
1,941 Posts
Bogdan,
CBE, what does this mean?
Thanks.
CBE, what does this mean?
Thanks.
I beleieve the rate on the Sharp is 1280x768.
Thanks for the info! I have seen the Sharp without a scaler and loved the DVD picture. My concern is that I will use the projector for sporting events and I want a better NTSC picture. Which does this better?
Thanks for the info! I have seen the Sharp without a scaler and loved the DVD picture. My concern is that I will use the projector for sporting events and I want a better NTSC picture. Which does this better?
I could be wrong, but I thing the street price on the NR is around $3000-3200 (AVS sells them -- email Jason for a quote), and my recollection is that the PFP-11 is at least twice that or thereabouts. I could be wrong on the latter, but Runco is hard to find for significant discounts. If you have a digital display, you are likely only to need the one rate. For the price, I think the NR is hard to beat. If you have 8" or 9" CRT, then you should definitely be looking at something else as an alternative.
I have not seen the Runco but I have seen the NR in some critical viewing sessions and was not bothered by artifacts; I thought the film deinterlacing was outstanding, and the video is clearly the best in class.
If it is important to you to make your cable or DSS look its best, the NR is the best choice; I agree with bogdan on that.
On film, I think you should probably view them both. One benefit; the Faroudja does mask the 'chroma bug' in many DVD players.
Both are fine products.
Cheers
I have not seen the Runco but I have seen the NR in some critical viewing sessions and was not bothered by artifacts; I thought the film deinterlacing was outstanding, and the video is clearly the best in class.
If it is important to you to make your cable or DSS look its best, the NR is the best choice; I agree with bogdan on that.
On film, I think you should probably view them both. One benefit; the Faroudja does mask the 'chroma bug' in many DVD players.
Both are fine products.
Cheers
Joined
·
455 Posts
Quote:
OHHH!!!! That's new for me. I'm almost deciding to go with the NRS also with the Sharp 9000. I decided to go with the Panasonic RP-91 because of its so said great interlaced performance and lack of the chroma bug. What you mean is that the faroudja does have the chroma bug independent of the player you are using?
If so, what are the options for around US$ 4,000 for a good Scaler?
| Originally posted by Bogdan Husker1, Look at color saturations. Funny how I can plug a DVD player like my RP-91 which does not have a chroma bug into the NR and have a dirty signal come out the other end. Bogdan |
If so, what are the options for around US$ 4,000 for a good Scaler?
Joined
·
20 Posts
Husker
I have a PFP 11 with the latest firmware 2.57e, matched with an NEC 50MP1 Plasma. I also had it calibrated by someone from ISF.
On DVD's it nothing but incredible, and it does a great job on interlaced DSS stuff coming in on SVideo.
I went through several tests with an NR, and ended up with the PFP because of the flexibility and quality.
Bogdan is right, as one of the PFP owners, I am very reluctant to post responses on this topic because of the overwelming amount of negativity towards Runco.
All I can say is that the ISF guy that did my calibration has worked with both, and likes the PFP much better.
In the end, you have to match it with your setup and give it a try. That's what demo models are for.
Good luck
I have a PFP 11 with the latest firmware 2.57e, matched with an NEC 50MP1 Plasma. I also had it calibrated by someone from ISF.
On DVD's it nothing but incredible, and it does a great job on interlaced DSS stuff coming in on SVideo.
I went through several tests with an NR, and ended up with the PFP because of the flexibility and quality.
Bogdan is right, as one of the PFP owners, I am very reluctant to post responses on this topic because of the overwelming amount of negativity towards Runco.
All I can say is that the ISF guy that did my calibration has worked with both, and likes the PFP much better.
In the end, you have to match it with your setup and give it a try. That's what demo models are for.
Good luck
Two guys from Mass are the only 2 people to ever post how great their Runco is..unusual. On DVD, the Runco, like other scalers, has the ability to match pixel for pixel your panels native rate. Get an NR loaded with your native rate and there goes any advantage you think the Runco has on DVD. No need to go into ANY discussion on deinterlacing sitcoms, sporting events, DSS or cable, we all agree that the Faroudja chip is the best available. In my opinion, and I do not have an NR, anyone purchasing the Runco PFP scaler for any reason, has little or no knowledge of scalers or what is available to them in the current marketplace. Find me a single review from an educated, knowledgeable professional reviewer or publication and I will recant my statement. 2 guys from Mass aren't going to convince me what I saw when I reviewed the Runco or what the 4 other people who tested it with me also saw. Done.
Quick clarification:
the "chroma bug" people refer to here is a well-known artifact created by the most commonly used MPEG chipsets in DVD players. It is quite distinctive and has been discussed in several threads. It is also well known that the Sage-based deinterlacing masks this bug to a great (but not complete) extent, making the Sage deinterlacers a good match for DVD players with the chroma bug.
The Sage chips also have some very slight chroma-related artifacts (as even ericbee has pointed out), but the Sage chipset is generally considered to have the best film and video deinterlacing capabilities.
That is not to say that other chipsets or deinterlacers based on them (the Silicon Image or Genesis based units, or software units) have BAD deinterlacing, they do not. And, there is much more to a good picture than deinterlacing quality. EricBee, for example, is using the LEEZA rather than the NR's he likes so much, because of the ability to use SDI/DVI for his plasma, which outweights the slightly less perfect deinterlacing in the Leeza.
Many installers and techs prefer one unit over another based on ease of integration and menu design, rather than pure performance, so one must be somewhat sceptical of such statements, although they are never irrelevant.
Ultimately, one must see for oneself. The board members' conclusions re Runco have been based as much on a perceived price to performance value reaction, perhaps more so, than on the unit's raw performance.
Anyhow, as I said above, I've not seen the Runco scalers except as matched to Runco plasmas, and have not had a chance to view them critically. The subjective picture quality is very good.
I agree that each person should demo the models they are interested in if at all possible, look at the prices and performance, and draw their own conclusions. If you like it best, it's the unit for you, regardless of what anyone on this forum may say.
Cheers
the "chroma bug" people refer to here is a well-known artifact created by the most commonly used MPEG chipsets in DVD players. It is quite distinctive and has been discussed in several threads. It is also well known that the Sage-based deinterlacing masks this bug to a great (but not complete) extent, making the Sage deinterlacers a good match for DVD players with the chroma bug.
The Sage chips also have some very slight chroma-related artifacts (as even ericbee has pointed out), but the Sage chipset is generally considered to have the best film and video deinterlacing capabilities.
That is not to say that other chipsets or deinterlacers based on them (the Silicon Image or Genesis based units, or software units) have BAD deinterlacing, they do not. And, there is much more to a good picture than deinterlacing quality. EricBee, for example, is using the LEEZA rather than the NR's he likes so much, because of the ability to use SDI/DVI for his plasma, which outweights the slightly less perfect deinterlacing in the Leeza.
Many installers and techs prefer one unit over another based on ease of integration and menu design, rather than pure performance, so one must be somewhat sceptical of such statements, although they are never irrelevant.
Ultimately, one must see for oneself. The board members' conclusions re Runco have been based as much on a perceived price to performance value reaction, perhaps more so, than on the unit's raw performance.
Anyhow, as I said above, I've not seen the Runco scalers except as matched to Runco plasmas, and have not had a chance to view them critically. The subjective picture quality is very good.
I agree that each person should demo the models they are interested in if at all possible, look at the prices and performance, and draw their own conclusions. If you like it best, it's the unit for you, regardless of what anyone on this forum may say.
Cheers
Husker1,
FAR64 is correct, and I also looked. Your Sharp is 1280x720 so either the Runco PFP-7 or Faroudja NR 16:9 HD Display (Faroudja's name for 720p) can provide that and be a good match resolution wise.
Since you mention that you will primarily watch sports, then it's a no-brainer since the Faroudja NR, with DCDi, excels at video de-interlacing. So I would recommend the Faroudja NR for you and your viewing habits. I gather you got this from my 1st post.
Joel: As an FYI the PFP-7 is $5000 and can also do 1280x768 if needed. Also while it's true that the Faroudja can mask a DVD player with the chroma bug, think about what that really means and implies- "dirty" processing and trickery which will backfire on a clean DVD signal. The Faroudja with it's CBE, CCS, and Y/C problems also introduce problems to DVD players w/o the chroma bug. Is it normal for a processor to do that? IMO, the clear answer is NO.
I will post my findings on the Faroudja NR later this week and explain CBE, CCS, and Y/C and how they relate to the moth-eaten reds, flickering/shimmering, and bleeding reds in more detail. If Faroudja could fix these things it would be outstanding in EVERY category. But it hasn't so far - completely. It's improved but still there, basically because it still uses/relies on old technology from the days of LD and VHS when CBE and CCS were needed, and it's hard to work a fix around that. They mess up a good/clean DVD signal. Look for my future post which will be more comprehensive.
flavioleoni: The Faroudja does not introduce the chroma bug. It will just "dirty" the dignal from a clean DVD player (like the RP-91 which is fantastic on its interlaced outputs), which I don't like and don't think is good engineering. See the above and look for my future post.
ericbee: I would stop if I were you, unless you can add something constructive that makes sense. I doubt it though. It seems you like to push people's buttons for some reason. But your lack of knowledge of video shows unfortunately from your long history of posts. I appreciate your efforts at gathering information, but that's about it. I don't try to convince anyone to get a Runco. Any normal individual can read all my posts and see they are objective. Yours seem angry all the time for some reason. And a lot of flip-flopping back and forth.
BTW, I'm not trying to convince YOU of anything. Or anyone else for that matter. I'm posting my thoughts and people can make up their own minds.
Bogdan (part of the MA secret society that loves Runcos and has something with Faroudjas)
FAR64 is correct, and I also looked. Your Sharp is 1280x720 so either the Runco PFP-7 or Faroudja NR 16:9 HD Display (Faroudja's name for 720p) can provide that and be a good match resolution wise.
Since you mention that you will primarily watch sports, then it's a no-brainer since the Faroudja NR, with DCDi, excels at video de-interlacing. So I would recommend the Faroudja NR for you and your viewing habits. I gather you got this from my 1st post.
Joel: As an FYI the PFP-7 is $5000 and can also do 1280x768 if needed. Also while it's true that the Faroudja can mask a DVD player with the chroma bug, think about what that really means and implies- "dirty" processing and trickery which will backfire on a clean DVD signal. The Faroudja with it's CBE, CCS, and Y/C problems also introduce problems to DVD players w/o the chroma bug. Is it normal for a processor to do that? IMO, the clear answer is NO.
I will post my findings on the Faroudja NR later this week and explain CBE, CCS, and Y/C and how they relate to the moth-eaten reds, flickering/shimmering, and bleeding reds in more detail. If Faroudja could fix these things it would be outstanding in EVERY category. But it hasn't so far - completely. It's improved but still there, basically because it still uses/relies on old technology from the days of LD and VHS when CBE and CCS were needed, and it's hard to work a fix around that. They mess up a good/clean DVD signal. Look for my future post which will be more comprehensive.
flavioleoni: The Faroudja does not introduce the chroma bug. It will just "dirty" the dignal from a clean DVD player (like the RP-91 which is fantastic on its interlaced outputs), which I don't like and don't think is good engineering. See the above and look for my future post.
ericbee: I would stop if I were you, unless you can add something constructive that makes sense. I doubt it though. It seems you like to push people's buttons for some reason. But your lack of knowledge of video shows unfortunately from your long history of posts. I appreciate your efforts at gathering information, but that's about it. I don't try to convince anyone to get a Runco. Any normal individual can read all my posts and see they are objective. Yours seem angry all the time for some reason. And a lot of flip-flopping back and forth.
BTW, I'm not trying to convince YOU of anything. Or anyone else for that matter. I'm posting my thoughts and people can make up their own minds.
Bogdan (part of the MA secret society that loves Runcos and has something with Faroudjas)
ericbee,I do enjoy reading your sometimes outrageous posts and honest and informative reviews on this forum.It's pretty obvious you share the passion for home theater along with the rest of us. My only concern is that people with questions and opinions that do not match your own seem to be labeled as "Men from Mars" "sissies" "backpedalers""snakes" and "cowards" Now I'm not saying you are wrong in a lot of cases just the opposite but It does contribute to a lot of useless defensive posting and a lot of closed threads.I think most of us here are intelligent enough to be able to read between the lines and make name calling and labeling unnecessary.Just my two cent's worth.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
- Status
Join the discussion
Join now to ask and comment!