[sloKANNONballZ]

I’m running into issues setting up using Audyssey app and transducers. What’s the proper way to setup? I have my sub in port 1 and tactile transducer into port 2 (Denon x3300w). I can’t add the 2nd sub (transducers) after I run Audyssey app setup and if I run setup with transducers “on”, it tries to read them as audio when they’re physical only. How can I add 2nd sub (transducers) after running Audyssey setup via app?

 

[Alan P]

You will need to use a y-splitter on a single sub out from the AVR and split the signal to both the sub and the amp for your transducers.

The problem with this method though is that your transducers will be getting the same corrected (EQ'ed) signal that is being sent to your sub. You want the transducers to get a clean, flat signal from the AVR and the only way around this is to "un-EQ" what Audyssey is doing with a MiniDSP (or similar).

 

[sloKANNONballZ]

You will need to use a y-splitter on a single sub out from the AVR and split the signal to both the sub and the amp for your transducers.

The problem with this method though is that your transducers will be getting the same corrected (EQ'ed) signal that is being sent to your sub. You want the transducers to get a clean, flat signal from the AVR and the only way around this is to "un-EQ" what Audyssey is doing with a MiniDSP (or similar).

Sheesh. Ok. There’s a minidsp 2x4 on amazon for $104. I’ll put in the order today if that one will do. Will the dsp go in between my Denon and transducer amp or after? Will I need software for dsp as well?

 

[Alan P]

If you want to do it right, yes, you will need to measure your response with REW both pre and post Audyssey to see what Audyssey is doing, then reverse engineer it with the MinDSP. Also calculating and implementing "negative delay" for the transducers. Not an easy task, really.

Post your dilemma in this thread and the TR pros may have some better suggestions for you.

The Tactile Response Thread for BASS

 

[sloKANNONballZ]

If you want to do it right, yes, you will need to measure your response with REW both pre and post Audyssey to see what Audyssey is doing, then reverse engineer it with the MinDSP. Also calculating and implementing "negative delay" for the transducers. Not an easy task, really.

Post your dilemma in this thread and the TR pros may have some better suggestions for you.


The Tactile Response Thread for BASS

I’m curious to what happens if I don’t use a minidsp? Will the transducers feel off sync or terrible?

 

[SteveCallas]

Why can’t you run Audyssey with one sub, then manually go back and set it to two subs?

 

[m. zillch]

You will need to use a y-splitter on a single sub out from the AVR and split the signal to both the sub and the amp for your transducers.

The problem with this method though is that your transducers will be getting the same corrected (EQ'ed) signal that is being sent to your sub. You want the transducers to get a clean, flat signal from the AVR

Um, like your intermediate device, your chair, transfers anything even remotely close to a "faithful" frequency response to your, um, bottom? I don't think it does.

The frequency response of a chair looks like a roller coaster on steroids, not to mention the gross harmonic distortion. I don't think one has to worry too much about a little Audyssey EQ in the signal path altering the response from the way the recording artists intended it to feel in your bottom in the first place. . . oh wait, that's right, they weren't even using these devices themselves when mixing the movie so the whole premise of doing it "accurately" is sort of a laughable proposition in the first place.

I'm not picking on you, Alan. I just don't take these things any more seriously than a disco ball or a popcorn machine in a home theater. If people dig it, fine. Just not for me.

 

[Alan P]

I'm not picking on you, Alan. I just don't take these things any more seriously than a disco ball or a popcorn machine in a home theater. If people dig it, fine. Just not for me.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I consider my Crowsons the single biggest bang-for-buck upgrade I have ever done...and now you can get similar TR for a fraction of the price with the BOSS. I'm not alone in the quest for better, more accurate TR, check the link I provided earlier.

 

[m. zillch]

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I have. I was an authorized D-Base D-Box dealer [a professional grade tactile transducer company which sold units to commercial theaters and was interested in branching out into consumer units so my company became a vendor]. Their system was demonstrated to me and I was unimpressed.*

What did impress me however was that their system was unique in that it had an optional mode where the transducer wasn't merely reacting to the deep bass content of the movie, it could extract hidden flags, digitally embedded in the movie, which were there specifically to inform the transducer when to do its thing! Clever. At least then there is a sense that what you are experiencing was intentionally planned by the artists. Unfortunately the number of movies embedded with this special flag was rather limited.

*Having to wear 3D glasses and/or using smell-o-vision scratch and sniff cards, if you know what those are, aren't my thing either.

 

[Alan P]

^^^

I'm not familiar with D-Base (and Google isn't helping), but I'll take your word that you were unimpressed.

I realize that some folks don't really care for loads of TR, whether it is provided by the subs or TR specific devices...but there are more than a few TR "junkies" on the forum and I can tell you that they have this stuff down to a science. My Crowson system is limited to 20hz and below, so it is not called upon often, but when it is it feels completely natural...to my butt at least.

I think TR is the next great frontier of home theater, and we are just now getting our feet wet. Personally, I'm excited about where it is currently headed.

 

[m. zillch]

^ Oops. My bad. I meant D-BOX.

Looks like they still make the home versions, too: http://tech.d-box.com/entertainment/home-entertainment/

"1400 encoded movies" [More than when I sold it, well over a decade ago, but still not a whole heck of a lot.]

They also sell ones used in professional flight simulators and military training facilities too.
"Reasonable distractions like turbulence, engine vibration and parasitic drag are important elements for flight training. D-BOX motion adds to the richness of the training experience. We integrate D-BOX in every opportunity."

I can see how I might dig it for some stuff, like this, which I consider a killer demo in general [and of course remember Youtube is just 2ch]:

If when the birds whack the cockpit my seat gets thumped, I guess that would be cool.

 

[javanpohl]

Yuck. In typical AVSforum fashion, it seems that there are loads of threads but none with a straight-forward means to set-up transducers in the OP.

Weird how I consider myself very disorganized but find myself often posting threads merely to consolidate valuable AVSforum info that is spread all over the map.

I imagine a useful way to go about this with Audyssey is to have the minidsp engaged on the sub signals from the get go, prior to running Audyssey. Well, technically, first run audyssey without to see what distance it sets your sub at. Then, put minidsp in the signal chain, with the subwoofer input then the outputs to the transducers and the sub. Put in (the minidsp) the delay to the sub as designated by Audyseey and your trasducer to "0" (and fine tune after you get it running). Re-run Audyssey. Then hopefully (assuming I haven't gotten the delay logic backwards) Audyssey should set your sub's distance to zero, or thereabouts but since the miniDSP will be adding the delay, the sub will be correct and then you can add a delay to the transducer in minidsp if need be. And, of course tinker with the EQ for the transducer in minidsp. Opinions on this probably vary, but personally, I only like when the transducers kick on really deep material, so I'd probably throw in a high pass filter somewhere between 35 and 80hz.

I suppose there are several ways to go about that, as I just recalled that you can change the sub distance without affecting much post audyssey (it's when you would try to add a 2nd subwoofer that Audyssey will be disengaged). You wouldn't want Audyysey to identify the transducer as its own sub anyways as Audyssey will try to blend the two subs as best as possible.

 

[gmmW8P8Adz]

Um, like your intermediate device, your chair, transfers anything even remotely close to a "faithful" frequency response to your, um, bottom? I don't think it does.

The frequency response of a chair looks like a roller coaster on steroids, not to mention the gross harmonic distortion. I don't think one has to worry too much about a little Audyssey EQ in the signal path altering the response from the way the recording artists intended it to feel in your bottom in the first place. . . oh wait, that's right, they weren't even using these devices themselves when mixing the movie so the whole premise of doing it "accurately" is sort of a laughable proposition in the first place.

I'm not picking on you, Alan. I just don't take these things any more seriously than a disco ball or a popcorn machine in a home theater. If people dig it, fine. Just not for me.

Personally it is my preference to be using biggest and best quality REAL subwoofer.. But the problem is that he uses too much budget in money and floor, as well need to bolt up all belongings and house to stop prevent for rattling. So what else can we do about that?. If we dont want to miss out enjoying some ULF contents at least we can try these kind of TR device. Even it is not 100% accuracy the recorder did have intention for FEELING.. That is because he include those ULF contents which human ear can not hear it, so unless he was recording movie for some dogs he intending for FEELING anyway.

 

[Alan P]

Great discussion on this very subject in the TR Thread just today:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...tile-response-thread-bass-5.html#post58452510

 

[m. zillch]

Do you Tactile transducer people post the transfer function (frequency responses) of your wooden chairs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_microphone

I assume you could use REW for this with the right type of mic.

 

[Alan P]

Do you Tactile transducer people post the transfer function (frequency responses) of your wooden chairs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_microphone

I assume you could use REW for this with the right type of mic.

We've been using Vibsensor for awhile now, but @3ll3d00d is working on something much more accurate!

 

[m. zillch]

"For the most accurate results insert the probe mic into your . . . ."

 

[craig john]

I solved the OP's problem several years ago by using my BluRay player, an Oppo 105. It has a set of analog outputs that are active even when using the HDMI output. This way, I can send a "clean" signal to my Crowson transducers, and still use the dual outputs of my pre/pro for RC with Audyssey. I can also use the Distance settings in the Oppo to "time" the transducers properly with the audio, so they both hit together and reinforce each other. I describe it here:

I have set up the "source signal" for the actuators a little bit unconventionally. I use Audyssey XT32 for room correction. This means that both subwoofer outputs on my pre/pro are exposed to the EQ for that room correction. The tactile actuators don't need or benefit from room correction, so the challenge was to find a source signal without room correction. I could not get one from my pre/pro. Then it dawned on me... since the vast majority of my "quality" viewing/listening is sourced from my Oppo BDP-83, and since it has MC analog outputs, including a subwoofer output, and those outputs are active even when the HDMI connection is in use, I simply connected the Oppo's subwoofer output to the amp for the Crowson directly. I then set the Bass Management in the Oppo to re-route all the main channel bass to the subwoofer output,an viola... a "pure" subwoofer source signal without room correction. The one downside is that the signal is not exposed to the Master Volume Control, so I need to control the "volume" of the actuator manually. I have settled on 2 different settings, one for movies and one for music, with the music setting being about 25% lower than the movie setting. It's a simple matter to set it before listening to one or the other, but there have been occasions where I forget and I get the movie setting for music...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...ile-motion-actuators-thread.html#post22807799

The Oppo also has 2 HDMI inputs, so I can run my Roku and my into the BluRay player and capture the subwoofer output from that to drive the Crowsons.

The Oppo is no longer available, but Panasonic makes a few BDP's with analog outputs. However, they don't have HDMI inputs.

(The Analog Subwoofer output is on the lower right of the group of connectors labeled "Audio Out.")


@m. zillch is clearly under-informed/misinformed about the benefits of tactile response. Since tactile is FELT and not heard, the transfer function of the seating is completely inconsequential.

Also, D-Box is completely different than tactile response. It actually moves the seating left/right, forward/back and up/down in an attempt to simulate motion that occurs on the screen. It can move several inches in any direction. For example it could lean one forward to simulate falling when something on-screen is falling. It can lean back to simulate climbing when something is going up on-screen. It's more like an arcade game than tactile response.

As Alan said, adding transducers to my system was one of the biggest improvements I have ever done... and that is over and above my 3 Seaton Submersive subs, already a pretty prodigious bass system.

Craig

 

[m. zillch]

Also, D-Box is completely different than tactile response. It actually moves the seating left/right, forward/back and up/down in an attempt to simulate motion that occurs on the screen. It can move several inches in any direction. For example it could lean one forward to simulate falling when something on-screen is falling. It can lean back to simulate climbing when something is going up on-screen. It's more like an arcade game than tactile response.

Were you a dealer like I was? They have several models and the "Audio only mode" can be used for just bass enhancement, for any movie/music (not just encoded ones), such as on this "Price: $12,000 as reviewed" one reviewed in the subwoofer section of Sound and Vision:

"At A Glance: Can be used for simple bass enhancement of music " -Sound and Vision Magazine, May 2012

"When it comes to subwoofers and speakers, air movement is of particular import. If you want loud, low bass, your woofers are going to have to compress a lot of air. For movies, it’s especially enjoyable when your subwoofer has enough spunk to cause the floor under your feet and the seat under your butt—and even your body’s chest cavity—to vibrate during those massive, over-the-top Hollywood explosions or through the low rumble of an earthquake. These are sensations that you feel more than hear.Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a subwoofer, such as JL Audio’s monstrous, plasterblasting Fathom f212 [A $6,300 sub - m. zillch] (reviewed in Home Theater, April 2012, and at HomeTheater.com) that can move everything in the room. There are devices, however—often called tactile transducers or low-frequency actuators—that are designed to be attached to your couch or chair and vibrate the furniture’s frame in correlation with the amount of bass in the audio signal. . . .


. . . the D-Box hardware can easily re-create the same kind of resonant vibrations in your home theater chair that you’d feel if there were a Fathom f212-caliber subwoofer in your system. [Again, a $6,300 sub - m. zillch]"

"The second mode, Audio, does not utilize any preprogrammed coding. It works with any analog-audio signal passing through the Controller’s analog-audio input on its way to the subwoofer; the vibrations generated are in direct relation to the incoming audio signal. In a sense, this mode turns the D-Box platform into an elaborate bass shaker for your couch. . . . In Audio mode, the amount of audio gain used to simulate vibration can be raised or lowered from the preset 50 percent to either increase or reduce the intensity of the effects."

"I’ve given numerous visitors demonstrations of the D-Box Motion Platform since I’ve been testing it, and it’s one of the only pieces of gear I’ve reviewed in more than a decade that every single person has absolutely raved about after experiencing it. It’s unbelievably good—and unbelievably addicting. Overblown demonstrations at dealers’ showrooms are useful to get your attention, but they don’t even begin to give you an idea of the intense immersion the D-Box system can provide for movies that don’t include much surround, but have an emotional story line."

[bold text emphasis mine]

 

[craig john]

Were you a dealer like I was? They have several models and the "Audio only mode" can be used for just bass enhancement, for any movie/music (not just encoded ones), such as on this $12,000 one reviewed in the subwoofer section of Sound and Vision:

"At A Glance: Can be used for simple bass enhancement of music " -Sound and Vision Magazine, May 2012

"When it comes to subwoofers and speakers, air movement is of particular import. If you want loud, low bass, your woofers are going to have to compress a lot of air. For movies, it’s especially enjoyable when your subwoofer has enough spunk to cause the floor under your feet and the seat under your butt—and even your body’s chest cavity—to vibrate during those massive, over-the-top Hollywood explosions or through the low rumble of an earthquake. These are sensations that you feel more than hear.Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a subwoofer, such as JL Audio’s monstrous, plasterblasting Fathom f212 [A $6,300 sub - m. zillch] (reviewed in Home Theater, April 2012, and at HomeTheater.com) that can move everything in the room. There are devices, however—often called tactile transducers or low-frequency actuators—that are designed to be attached to your couch or chair and vibrate the furniture’s frame in correlation with the amount of bass in the audio signal. . . .


. . . the D-Box hardware can easily re-create the same kind of resonant vibrations in your home theater chair that you’d feel if there were a Fathom f212-caliber subwoofer in your system. [Again, a $6,300 sub - m. zillch]"

"The second mode, Audio, does not utilize any preprogrammed coding. It works with any analog-audio signal passing through the Controller’s analog-audio input on its way to the subwoofer; the vibrations generated are in direct relation to the incoming audio signal. In a sense, this mode turns the D-Box platform into an elaborate bass shaker for your couch. . . . In Audio mode, the amount of audio gain used to simulate vibration can be raised or lowered from the preset 50 percent to either increase or reduce the intensity of the effects."

"I’ve given numerous visitors demonstrations of the D-Box Motion Platform since I’ve been testing it, and it’s one of the only pieces of gear I’ve reviewed in more than a decade that every single person has absolutely raved about after experiencing it. It’s unbelievably good—and unbelievably addicting. Overblown demonstrations at dealers’ showrooms are useful to get your attention, but they don’t even begin to give you an idea of the intense immersion the D-Box system can provide for movies that don’t include much surround, but have an emotional story line."

[bold text emphasis mine]

I was not a D-Box dealer and have never been a dealer or salesman of any audio/video equipment. My only interaction with the D-Box system was a demo at CEDIA a few ears ago. I was so nauseous after 3 minutes in that chair that I almost vomited. I would never consider that technology unless it came with a continuous Dramamine IV infusion pump. I never looked at it any further after that demo! If your only exposure to tactile response is the D-Box, I can see why you would think tactile is a gimmick.

Also, it's nice that it can be used a shaker, but at $2,000 to $6,000 per chair, I doubt it'll see a big following.

Craig

EDIT:

. . . the D-Box hardware can easily re-create the same kind of resonant vibrations in your home theater chair that you’d feel if there were a Fathom f212-caliber subwoofer in your system. [Again, a $6,300 sub - m. zillch]"

You pointed out TWICE that the JL F212 is a $6,300 sub. Why? What does that have to do with anything?

I previously owned a pair of F112's, basically an F212 in two boxes instead of 1. They're a 12" drivers with a sizeable amp in small boxes. When I upgraded to the Submersives, they blew the F112's out of the water in terms of output and LF extension. They have dual 15" drivers in larger boxes and bigger amps. No comparison. I now have 3 Submersives... and the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators are still a HUGE addition to my "bass system.:

Craig