[RMcR]

Time to pick my sub. I've decided that the corner of my 3000 cu. ft. basement home theater is the best spot, all things considered, for a sub to replace my 8" CS Newton P500.


WAF is a big obstacle, so I'm ruling out cylinders despite their modest footprints.


Ideal corner can accommodate a sub as wide or as deep as 25 inches without requiring a rearranging of furniture. Down firing preferable but not essential.


My current short list includes the down firing Rythmic D15, the down firing Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 and the front firing SVS SB-12 Plus.


What's the best sub among these for blockbuster Blu-Ray and music with good low end?


Some pics:

 

[av-ra]

I think the data and experiences here will show that the SVS is not in the same league. You should either pare it down to the Rythmik and Hsu or add a better 3rd alternative (i.e. an Epik Vanquish or one of the eD's).

 

[RMcR]



Quote:
Originally Posted by av-ra /forum/post/16925600


I think the data and experiences here will show that the SVS is not in the same league. You should either pare it down to the Rythmik and Hsu or add a better 3rd alternative (i.e. an Epik Vanquish or one of the eD's).

Fair point. I think SVS would even acknowledge that their smallest, sealed sub isn't meant to go up against some of the aforementioned for HT in moderate to large rooms. They'd recommend the PB-12 Plus or PB-12 NSD, most likely.


I would have to say I'm leaning Rythmik or Hsu. The only thing holding me back is I've not been able to find as many impressions about Rythmik as SVS, which has a very strong and satisfied following on this and other forums.

 

[spyboy]

The Rythmik D15 is over $1,000 delivered. The HSU VTF 2 MK III is ~$600 delivered. The SVS is NOT a good HT sub.


I personally do not like the look of the D15, the feet simply are not pleasing to my eye.


If you are willing to spend close to $1,100 there are other subs that should be considered. Having said that. For music, the D15 is about as good as it gets in that price range due to the servo. There is a little controversy over what great music performance gets you with movies and things like explosions. After all, what does an explosion really sound like?


If you are satisfied with the looks of the D15, it should be a good choice in your room.


Rythmik has sold far fewer units than SVS (or HSU). But things are changing. The Rythmiks have become more popular recently. I don't think I have seen one post from someone who did not like the Rythimik.

 

[RMcR]

I don't have a problem with the way the D15 looks. One of the things I like about it is that it will fit in the front right corner of my room without requiring me to rearrange furniture. It really won't be that visible.


What would you recommend at the $1,100 level?


My current sub has served me well for the last 10 years. I expect the next one to do at least the same.

 

[vantagesc]

Having accurate and clean sounding bass is still important for movies IMO because of the movie soundtrack and other ambient sounds. But I suppose that is a debate for another thread.


I don't think there is another sub out there that offers the Rythmik's combination of features for around $1k (servo, crossover adjustments, finish, size, etc.), even though you can get subs with more output for the money. If you can deal with a regular finish, you can always get the standard D15 front firing version as well and save a few bucks.


BTW, I would think the Epik Vanquish would have quite a bit less output than the D15, especially in the 20hz region because the Rythmiks are equalized, but someone would have to confirm. An Epik Sentinel might be another story though.


If this was only for HT, I would consider an Epik Dragon as well. Because I wanted to use my sub for music and need a really small sub, I bought the F12SE.

 

[RMcR]

I was just going to ask everyone whether the F12 might be a good option for me. Its size is a little more to my liking than the F15. The SE looks pretty sharp. How big a room do you have yours in, vantagese? How does it do with big bad blockbusters at sub reference levels (say, 60-65 dB)?

 

[vantagesc]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16926866


I was just going to ask everyone whether the F12 might be a good option for me. Its size is a little more to my liking than the F15. The SE looks pretty sharp. How big a room do you have yours in, vantagese? How does it do with big bad blockbusters at sub reference levels (say, 60-65 dB)?

I now have it in a 14 x 22 foot room that is closed. Ceiling is about 9 feet. The F12SE produces more than enough output for my (current) tastes in this size room. But I haven't pulled out an SPL meter and tested. I assume I listen at far below reference levels, but it seems loud to me.


When I first got it though, I tried it in a really big room. The room itself is maybe 25 x 22, but the entire right side of the room is open to a sitting area, kitchen, etc. Total width of the room then is something like 50', but I sit about 15' away from the sub, which is corner loaded. It still can produce good levels of output.


I think Brian said the F15 produces 4dB more output across the range than the F12. More output is always nice to have, but I was fairly confident that the F12 would be enough given my room size and my personal needs.

 

[av-ra]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16926866


I was just going to ask everyone whether the F12 might be a good option for me. Its size is a little more to my liking than the F15. The SE looks pretty sharp. How big a room do you have yours in, vantagese? How does it do with big bad blockbusters at sub reference levels (say, 60-65 dB)?

I haven't heard any of the subs, but based on the data the F15 and a Hsu VTF-3 appear to have similar SPL's, while I would be willing to guess that F12 and VTF-2 also will have similar output. Based on what I've read, if your focus is on musicality then the F12 is probably the pick, if your focus is on price then the VTF-2 should do (though it is probably the least capable of your choices), if your focus is on HT impact with good musicality then the VTF-3 is the pick, while the F/D15 might be the best "all-around" (which is why it costs the most).

 

[av-ra]



Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/16925790


I don't think I have seen one post from someone who did not like the Rythimik.

About the only discussion I've seen is whether two F12's is needed for decent HT slam, and whether an F15 can hold up well against some of other bigger subs (i.e. the 18" eD's and Epik's) which doesn't seem like a fair fight for HT. Otherwise, yeah, nothing negative.

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by av-ra /forum/post/16929961


About the only discussion I've seen is whether two F12's is needed for decent HT slam, and whether an F15 can hold up well against some of other bigger subs (i.e. the 18" eD's and Epik's) which doesn't seem like a fair fight for HT. Otherwise, yeah, nothing negative.

No one is saying the Rythmiks are at the top for output. There are plenty of subs that can add a hand full of dbs to the Rythmiks. I was saying that I am not aware of any complaints about sound quality. Rythmik might very well have the best servo available at this time.

 

[RMcR]

I've been exchanging e-mails with Brian D. this weekend and he thinks both the F12 and D15 would do well in my roughly 3,000 cubic foot space. But he's recommending the D15 as a better fit for my front speakers, Boston VR-M60 two-way bookshelves with 6.5" woofers.


His reasoning is that each time you crossover to a larger driver, you want to maintain a "good ratio". If my speakers had a 5" woofer, for example, he said he'd recommend the F12.


Does this make sense to folks? I'm not sure I understand it.

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16930115


I've been exchanging e-mails with Brian D. this weekend and he thinks both the F12 and D15 would do well in my roughly 3,000 cubic foot space. But he's recommending the D15 as a better fit for my front speakers, Boston VR-M60 two-way bookshelves with 6.5" woofers.


His reasoning is that each time you crossover to a larger driver, you want to maintain a "good ratio". If my speakers had a 5" woofer, for example, he said he'd recommend the F12.


Does this make sense to folks? I'm not sure I understand it.

The size of the woofer in your mains would seem to have mostly to do with the mid and upper bass. I am not aware that the 15 inch Rythmiks play higher than the 12 inch Rythmiks.


There has been discussion about subs that play up to 200 Hz and possibly higher. Subs that can play that high can take some of the strain off the 5 or 6 inch woofers in some speakers.


Some folks really insist on a more full range main speaker to keep up with the ever more powerful subwoofers people are buying.


Maybe he is saying that the 6.5 inch in your Bostons can hang in with the more powerful 15 inch Rythmik. But if you use at least a 60 Hz crossover and preferably an 80 Hz crossover, it may not make much difference.

 

[av-ra]



Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/16930153


The size of the woofer in your mains would seem to have mostly to do with the mid and upper bass. I am not aware that the 15 inch Rythmiks play higher than the 12 inch Rythmiks.

The data I've seen (I forget where, but I am also considering a Rythmik) is that the -3dB point on the F/D15 is 80Hz, on the F12 its 100Hz and on the F12G it is 120Hz. So choosing the 15"er requires that you have speakers that are say -3db at 70Hz or lower (not hard), but just to make sure you have better integration your speakers should probably go even lower and you may want to cross over your speakers at 60Hz (vs. the more typical 80Hz). That is what I believe this is all about.

 

[RMcR]

I think I will go with the 15" and plan on letting the sub handle everything below 60Hz.


Meanwhile, while checking out CDs on the Mapleshade Audio website, I made the mistake of reading through the Free Audio Tips/Upgrade section. In case you haven't seen it, it starts out reasonably enough ("Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away."). But before too long, they're advocating putting every component you own on their own $350 maple cutting board, elevating speaker wires, putting weights on top of your speakers and never, ever using the RCA input to hook up a subwoofer.


I suppose that when you make such great sounding recordings and sell them for less than $10 a pop, you can make your margins marketing a lot of high priced "special sauce."

 

[av-ra]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16930613


I think I will go with the 15" and plan on letting the sub handle everything below 60Hz....

Sounds like the right choice - tell us what you think when you get it. I'm still on the fence between the F12 and 15 (and perhaps the VTF-3), so another happy customer would help....

 

[vantagesc]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16930613


Meanwhile, while checking out CDs on the Mapleshade Audio website, I made the mistake of reading through the Free Audio Tips/Upgrade section. In case you haven't seen it, it starts out reasonably enough ("Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away."). But before too long, they're advocating putting every component you own on their own $350 maple cutting board, elevating speaker wires, putting weights on top of your speakers and never, ever using the RCA input to hook up a subwoofer.

Mapleshade Audio, wow!!!!

Here are some of the crazy ones...


Try sitting on phonebooks is funny. How high to sit depends on the speaker. Sitting that low with some speakers will cause problems, especially if the speaker doesn't have the best dispersion, you could be hearing a suckout in the crossover area. But I guess you would change the frequency at which the floor bounce cancellation occurs.


Removing grills...okay I agree with some speakers.


Snap off any plastic phase ring from the tweeter?

Never use speaker cables shorter than 4'? Why, because their cables color the sound?

 

[vantagesc]



Quote:
Originally Posted by av-ra /forum/post/16931969


Sounds like the right choice - tell us what you think when you get it. I'm still on the fence between the F12 and 15 (and perhaps the VTF-3), so another happy customer would help....

As for F12 vs. D15, I'd base my decision on output needs and size. That's pretty much it, especially if you are crossing over at 80hz or less. One of the reasons I went with Rythmik over other brands is that you can always add output with a second sub, but you can never add sound quality without starting from scratch.


If you are unsure about output, get the 15.

 

[RMcR]



Quote:
Originally Posted by vantagesc /forum/post/16935431


As for F12 vs. D15, I'd base my decision on output needs and size. That's pretty much it, especially if you are crossing over at 80hz or less. One of the reasons I went with Rythmik over other brands is that you can always add output with a second sub, but you can never add sound quality without starting from scratch.


If you are unsure about output, get the 15.

Price difference is negligible and the D15 is a better fit. Its 18" x 18" footprint will tuck nicely into the corner. If that placement gives me too much base, I can always put it to the left of the television where the piano black finish will compliment a similar finish on the television, A/R rack and speaker stands.


Plus, with a downward firing sub I don't have to worry about my energetic young son accidently kicking in the driver!

 

[av-ra]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcR /forum/post/16935479


Price difference is negligible and the D15 is a better fit. Its 18" x 18" footprint will tuck nicely into the corner. If that placement gives me too much base, I can always put it to the left of the television where the piano black finish will compliment a similar finish on the television, A/R rack and speaker stands.


Plus, with a downward firing sub I don't have to worry about my energetic young son accidently kicking in the driver!

I also prefer a downward firing sub, so can't disagree with your choice - go for it! (In my case I have some space constraints that make the D15 tight, so I am considering the DIY version of the 12"er which is also downward firing - too bad they don't also sell that version pre-made...).