AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am a newbie to multi-channel audio. As I understand it, most SACD and DVD-A players utilize fixed crossovers for the LFE channel, which are typically set at 80 Hz. For 5.1 movie soundtracks, I have a set-up with an external electronic crossover. On my pre/pro I set the subwoofer to OFF and the main L/R speakers to LARGE, which routes all the LFE to the main speakers. Then I use the external crossover to set the high-pass to the main speakers at 60 Hz, and then low-pass and gain control on the subwoofer is variable and I have it dialed in a little south of 60 Hz right now. I'm wondering if I can use a similar technique for multi-channel audio?? Does anyone else use a similar configuation?


-TBain
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,141 Posts
There will be a potential problem doing that with MC hi-rez players.


As you probably know, most players require that you use the 5.1 analog connection for DVD-A and SACD. And since most receivers and pre/pros do not do BM on the 5.1 input, you will need to do BM in the player.


Here's the problem: Most players will not redirect the .1 channel to the mains when the player is set to No Sub. As such, you will have no way to get the .1 to the mains, for it to be crossed over by your external crossover.


You would need to find a player that will redirect the .1 to the mains, or find some other way to do it, such as with an Outlaw ICBM.


BGL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hmmmm, that kind of stinks. Do you know of any DVD-A or SACD players that have more sophisticated base management? For example, different/variable crossover settings for the different channels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
close, but not quite. I have an all Paradigm set-up and they supply an electronic crossover unit with the Servo-15 subwoofer. I basically use that as my bass management. The front L and R output from the pre/pro is fed to the crossover. The high-pass output (which is fixed) is fed the the main L+R amplifier -- it's a single amp, not bi-amped. The low-pass output (which is variable) is fed to the subwoofer. For DTS and Dolby 5.1 I have the pre/pro set the main speakers to LARGE and the subwoofer to OFF. This routes all the LFE information to the main speakers, which in turn, gets "managed" by the external crossover. This set-up also allows me to use the subwoofer when listening to 2-channel music, which I like.


I'm discovering that the bass management in SACD and DVD-A players doesn't/won't reroute the LFE channel like the pre/pro does for DTS and Dolby 5.1. Since my pre/pro has analog inputs, I suppose I could try routing the analog outs through the pre/pro. I'm not sure if the pre/pro will do the rerouting on the analog inputs, and of course, that would involve and other A-D/D-A conversion.


In my mind, the ideal solution would be to have all this done in the digital domain before it leaves the DVD-A/SACD player and have a variable crossover for each of the 6 channels, again in the digital domain. I'm not sure if any player has that capability, though??:confused: And if there is one, I'm betting it costs a fortune!


It sounds like the best solution available today is the Outlaw ICBM, which has adjustable crossovers and gain for each of the channels. Of course, this is all in the analog domain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
tbain,


Let me make sure I understood your set-up correctly. I think you have 2 Paradigm front speakers with active subwoofer built-in in EACH speaker and analog xover coming with it. I don't think you described what your center/surrounds/backs are in detail. Are they same Paradigm as the front ones?

Or do you mean that you have 5 ~ 7 Paradigm satellites, and 1 subwoofer with active crossover for it? Please clarify.


Anyway, in general, universal player manufacturers relieve themselves from complete flexible bass management, by putting it to AV receiver side. And, probably even in the same company, they don't(or fail to) allow good bass management for analog multichannel inputs. I agree that bass mangement should be done in digital domain, but I think it should be done in AV receivers or pre/pros using digital link like 1394(iLink) or HDMI(not ready for SACD/DVD-A yet).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
I agree with the above comments. I have an HK7200 receiver that does do BM on the 5.1 inputs. However, to do that it has to convert from analog to digital and back to analog. This is not the best solution for Hi Rez but it can do a decent job. My player has fixed crossovers at 120Hz for SACD and a stupid 200HZ for DVD-A. I use the direct through volume for SACD and the receiver's BM for the DVD-A source. Some people here advocate the Outlaw ICBM which is a $250 box that does analog conversions for bass management. A great solution for many people but I haven't heard it myself. Do a search on it here and you will find lots of positive responses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,141 Posts
Quote:
Some people here advocate the Outlaw ICBM which is a $250 box that does analog conversions for bass management
Just to nitpick a bit, the ICBM is a 100% analog box. No conversions are done on anything. Everything is done in the analog domain.


BGL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Quote:
Originally posted by jheoaustin
tbain,


Let me make sure I understood your set-up correctly. I think you have 2 Paradigm front speakers with active subwoofer built-in in EACH speaker and analog xover coming with it. I don't think you described what your center/surrounds/backs are in detail. Are they same Paradigm as the front ones?

Or do you mean that you have 5 ~ 7 Paradigm satellites, and 1 subwoofer with active crossover for it? Please clarify.


Anyway, in general, universal player manufacturers relieve themselves from complete flexible bass management, by putting it to AV receiver side. And, probably even in the same company, they don't(or fail to) allow good bass management for analog multichannel inputs. I agree that bass mangement should be done in digital domain, but I think it should be done in AV receivers or pre/pros using digital link like 1394(iLink) or HDMI(not ready for SACD/DVD-A yet).
The subwoofer is separate from the main left and right speakers. I have single subwoofer. The external electronic crossover takes the Left and Right inputs and then outputs a low-pass signal to the subwoofer and a high-pass signal to the main speakers. Note that the crossover is before the amplifiers (the subwoofer amp is built-in) and operates on line-level signals. The center and surround channels are sent directly to the amplifier and then out to the respective speakers, and never go through the crossover. I have the pre/pro set all those channels to SMALL, so all the bass is removed and/or rerouted to the main channel. It sounds more complicated than it really is, and it works quite well.


I like the idea of being able to manage the bass for all types of sources (2-channel, DTS, 5.1, SACD, etc ...). I think having a subwoofer handling all the low-frequency information makes it much easier to control room resonances and other room interactions. Of course, my idea of low-frequency (
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
tbain,


I think ICBM or 1394 link are only 2 pure solutions I'd like. I prefer 1394, and that's why I waited long time for 1394-equipped player and pre/pro... Or maybe you can add 1 more subwoofer with that xover, to have 2 subwoofers either for front 3 and rear 2/4, OR for left 2/3 and right 2/3. I'd prefer using 1 for left speakers, and the other for right speakers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,724 Posts
BGLeduc,


I thought that is what I was saying. My receiver forces a A/D/A conversion while the Outlaw does the crossover in the analog domain. Hence the recommendation...
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top