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Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9870#post_24495485



I happened to notice the cable ties. Those are not UV proof and will become brittle and fall off in a year or so. It's best to use some high quality black tape - the $5 a roll stuff. That will last a very long time.


Chuck
 

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Thanks Chuck... will change the zip-ties (didn't even think about that).  

 

I'm enjoying the set-up.  Still getting used to WMC, but for the most part am very pleased with the outcome regarding that.  I was hoping to save a few more pennies from Comcast, however, they want to squeeze every last dime outa ya when you just have internet.  

 

I did notice a few channels were spotty for a few seconds this afternoon.  Likely something I won't try to play around with because it only lasted for a few seconds versus several minutes.  KCRA actually caused WMC to stop working once.  After a quick restart of WMC it played again just fine.  

 

Those types of problems would be very difficult to determine the cause due to running this set-up from WMC... the cause I believe is likely Windows based.  
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9870#post_24496270


KRON and KTVU are solid, high quality pictures.  I was super excited to see that I could enjoy those channels once again (used to live in bay area).  

Most stations are 50+miles away.  Not sure on exact distances I'd have to check tvfool.  All I know is that I was hopefull for half of what I ended up with... then got a whole lot more. 


I'm using the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250.  It works great so far.  


Anyone know I'd go about getting WMC guide to populate the "non local" channels?  It seems to only be populating the local channels.  I suspect this has to do with entering in the zip code of my broadcast area when setting up WMC.  This info filters in via the net so I'm wondering how I can get WMC to recognize the other channels and their broadcast areas and then populate them.  Also, channel logo didn't populate the non-local channels as well... likely the same problem.  
Sutro Tower, where KRON and KTVU transmit from, is at least 125 miles from you... maybe more. They don't even show up in the TVFool list for Yuba City. To get solid pictures on those stations, you've got to have a great working antenna set up and the receiver in the HVR-2250 has to be a sensitive one! You've got a winning combination.


Did you have any problems with the set up of the HVR-2250 using WMC?


Larry

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Quote:
Originally Posted by csworldwide1  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24496890


It appears that KXTV has applied for a digital fill-in translator on Channel 36. The translator will serve a good chunk of Sacramento & Yolo Counties.

Too bad they're not going to put it somewhere that's useful for me. KXTV has a good signal here but the lowest SNR of any Walnut Grove station. I have such a bad path to downtown Sacramento that I don't think it'll ruin KICU here which is essentially 100% reception.


I'll bet it won't take long to get this on the air once they get approval.


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24497085



Sutro Tower, where KRON and KTVU transmit from, is at least 125 miles from you... maybe more. They don't even show up in the TVFool list for Yuba City. To get solid pictures on those stations, you've got to have a great working antenna set up and the receiver in the HVR-2250 has to be a sensitive one! You've got a winning combination.


Did you have any problems with the set up of the HVR-2250 using WMC?


Larry

SF
It is VERY windy here in Yuba City today and I'm betting that is why KTVU is spotty.  KRON is solid though.  You are right... I lucked out and ended up with a winning combination.  I'm especially surprised due to the fact I'm only at 15-16 feet above ground.  I swear by the Winegard pre-amp though.  

 

The HVR-2250 seems to be working great... I was however, able to get the same channels when connected directly to my Samsung LCD tuner (2010 model).  

 

At first, WMC coupled with the 2250 only let me get local channels (likely due to entering the zip code?).  Dissapointed that I wasn't able to get all the channels that my Samsung tuner allowed, a ran a channel search in WMC again and ended up with all the channels (plus a few more) that my Samsung delivered.  I just checked and WMC recognized 74 channels.  Not all of those channels bring in a signal though... some say "off air" and are a black screen.  Alot, as you can imagine, are over-laps from different broadcast regions.  

 

I have been researching how to get WMC guide to populate all the "non local" channels... cannot figure it out though.  WMC just says "data not available" for the channels that are not local.  So in all, only about 15 channels have the guide schedule correct.  Any help here would be appreciated from you WMC gurus!

 

I do have to say though... building an HTPC from scratch was awesome!  I can't wait to help the next guy (or gal) out.  I'd like to build a micro-atx version next time (I didn't have room in my entertainment center for another component so I opted for an ATX tower and set it next to my entertainment center).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24498438



I do have to say though... building an HTPC from scratch was awesome!  I can't wait to help the next guy (or gal) out.  I'd like to build a micro-atx version next time (I didn't have room in my entertainment center for another component so I opted for an ATX tower and set it next to my entertainment center).

I built a dual boot Ubuntu (Linux)/Windows 7 machine for stemming to my TV. Including flash based video hosted on sites that a Roku couldn't do. It was a great project, even though they sent me the wrong mother board.


The computer in my office has a (unused TV card) in it. It gets the main channels, but none of the subs. Thinking of pulling it and putting it in the computer I built, no DVR in the garage. Any ideas on how to get the subs?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24498438


It is VERY windy here in Yuba City today and I'm betting that is why KTVU is spotty.  KRON is solid though.

I looked at your TVFool report again and I see it's 105 miles to KGO to Sutro Tower and only a 1 edge path. That's better than my path which is 2 edge and 110 miles. It's not unreasonable that you'd be able to get something from there. But there are problems. Walnut Grove is 174 degrees and Sutro is 206 degrees. As an experiment you might try splitting the difference and see if it helps Sutro without degrading Walnut Grove. You might be able to give up a few dB on Walnut Grove without reducing the SNRs and pick up some Signal Strength on Sutro to improve those SNRs.


Another problem is co-channel interference. The interfering station doesn't have to be strong, just strong enough to raise the noise floor and destroy the SNR of the other station. Ask Larry about KCRA. I have co-channel issues with KION/KEMO on 32, K29AB/KPIX on 29, K38JP/KRON on 38 and KMMD/KCNS on 39. Looks like you have these co-channel issues:


K19FY/KOFY 19

KKTF/KQED 30

KHSL/KCSM 43


That leaves you quite a few possibilities. I would think you'd also receive KPIX, KMTP, KCNS and KBCW.


The wind shouldn't do anything except limit inversions. In a day or two the inversions will be back.


Chuck
 

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Fortunately, K19FY isn't on the air at this time.


- Trip
 

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Theducksfan2010,


Do you have a channel master 7777 preamp (the original one with seperate vhf/uhf inputs)?


Reason I ask is because right now I am using the same RCA amp that you are. Before, I was using the channel master... but I let a friend borrow it indefinitely so I had to buy the RCA amp to replace it for my setup.


The extra gain of the channel master really helped out in my situation. I was finally able to score another original 7777 amp and am expecting it within a week.... so I will be able to get rid of the RCA preamp.



BTW, I've enjoyed reading about your OTA setup and experimentation. I spent a lot of time on my rooftop last year holding a mast and walking over every inch of my roof and raising and lowering the mast... took a while to find the sweet spot, but I did.


Bob C
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyc  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24500100


The extra gain of the channel master really helped out in my situation. I was finally able to score another original 7777 amp and am expecting it within a week.... so I will be able to get rid of the RCA preamp.


Bob C

I have to wonder what's going on here. The specs of the old CM7777 and the RCA preamp are so close that it's unlikely anyone could notice any difference between the two.


CM7777 - UHF 26 dB Gain, 2 dB Noise Figure.


RCA (measured by ADTech) - UHF 24 dB Gain, 2.6 dB Noise Figure


I've found that unless you can do a quick A/B test of preamps that it's not really possible to swap one for another and look at the results. Conditions change too much to do that.


Chuck
 

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Hi Chuck,

In another week I will be able to do a quick a/b test when I get my cm7777. Been hunting the net for the past 3 months and finally found one just a few hours ago.


To refresh your memory, my new place is fringe and somewhat multipath ridden; and some channels were stronger and some were weaker when I surveyed my roof (IE: stand here, and I get channel 3 and 40.... move 3 feet and I dont get 3 and 40, but now I get 29 and 58)


The trouble channels are ion and my58 (high uhf) Still watchable most of the time, but the first to cut out when conditions aren't ideal.


Maybe what is going on is the XG91 uhf antenna doesn't receive high uhf as well as the lower part of the spectrum... so the extra 2dB of gain on the channel master 7777 really helps out in my fringe location.


Bob C
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24499227



I looked at your TVFool report again and I see it's 105 miles to KGO to Sutro Tower and only a 1 edge path. That's better than my path which is 2 edge and 110 miles. It's not unreasonable that you'd be able to get something from there. But there are problems. Walnut Grove is 174 degrees and Sutro is 206 degrees. As an experiment you might try splitting the difference and see if it helps Sutro without degrading Walnut Grove. You might be able to give up a few dB on Walnut Grove without reducing the SNRs and pick up some Signal Strength on Sutro to improve those SNRs.


Another problem is co-channel interference. The interfering station doesn't have to be strong, just strong enough to raise the noise floor and destroy the SNR of the other station. Ask Larry about KCRA. I have co-channel issues with KION/KEMO on 32, K29AB/KPIX on 29, K38JP/KRON on 38 and KMMD/KCNS on 39. Looks like you have these co-channel issues:


K19FY/KOFY 19

KKTF/KQED 30

KHSL/KCSM 43


That leaves you quite a few possibilities. I would think you'd also receive KPIX, KMTP, KCNS and KBCW.


The wind shouldn't do anything except limit inversions. In a day or two the inversions will be back.


Chuck
Perhaps I will try to move it a bit and check for better signal strength.  KTVU has been very spotty today.

 

KPIX comes in excellent

KRON excellent
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24498438


It is VERY windy here in Yuba City today and I'm betting that is why KTVU is spotty.  KRON is solid though.  


I just checked and WMC recognized 74 channels.  
As Chuck wrote, the wind shouldn't affect your reception. Probably some of the reflective inversion layers aren't as strong, though, due to the wind, so that's why you're seeing break up. You're going to see the signal levels of the distant stations vary a lot with the changing conditions.


If you have time, JHughy, I'd love to see a list of the channels you are receiving up there.


I'm jealous of the results you guys in the Central Valley get.
I've got a 10 element VHF yagi and CM4228 8-bay bow tie pointed at Walnut Grove, just 62 miles away, and only two of the stations, KMAX 31 and KQCA 58, are solid in here. KVIE and KXTV on VHF vary a lot from below the cliff edge to very strong signals depending on conditions, KOVR is mostly below the cliff edge but occasionally makes an appearance, and KCRA is totally unpredictable. It used to be solid, like 31 and 58, but when KGO's translator came on the air KCRA disappeared. I only get the other stations during vary rare, extremely good conditions. There are too many hills and mountains around here for good long distance TV reception.


The KCRA/KGO situation is what happens with co-channel stations. If conditions are such that signals from the South Bay are low and signals from Walnut Grove are higher than normal, I usually get KCRA okay, but under "normal" conditions I get neither one. I have never received KGO's signal on channel 35, but it's strong enough to make a big difference on reception of KCRA.


Larry

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24500458


12.2 KHSLDT2 is super weak and very spotty.  I actually would like this channel.  Cannot find it in my tvfool report.  Where is this station?  Any ideas on how to improve this signal?

KHSL is on RF 43 in Chico. You need to turn the antenna around for that and other Chico Stations.


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyc  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24500282


Maybe what is going on is the XG91 uhf antenna doesn't receive high uhf as well as the lower part of the spectrum... so the extra 2dB of gain on the channel master 7777 really helps out in my fringe location.

It's the noise figure that counts and not so much the gain (if at all). A gain increase of 2 dB will make only a tiny improvement in the noise figure.


To make a long story short, add up all the loss from the preamp output to the TV input (coax loss, splitter, etc.) Then add 6 - 7 dB for the TV tuner noise figure. Now add another 8 dB. That's the optimum gain the preamp should have to degrade the preamp noise figure by no more than 0.5 dB. Less gain will degrade the noise figure of the preamp and more gain makes almost no improvement to the noise figure but greatly increases the possibility of tuner overload. 8 dB is a rule of thumb but is backed up by the formula for 2nd stage noise contribution.


For example; suppose you have 100' of RG-6 (5 dB loss at channel 51), a 2-way splitter (3.5 dB loss), 1 dB loss in miscellaneous connectors and 6 dB tuner noise figure.


5 + 3.5 + 1 + 6 + 8 = 23.5 dB optimum preamp gain. More gain won't get you any more than a couple tenths of a dB and less gain (like 15 dB) will a add couple dB to the preamp noise figure.


The preamp noise figure plus the 2nd stage noise contribution is called the System Noise Figure. That's the only number that counts for sensitivity.


If you're seeing a big improvement with the CM7777 over the RCA then there's something wrong with the RCA.


Chuck
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyc  /t/397256/sacramento-ca-ota/9900#post_24500100


BTW, I've enjoyed reading about your OTA setup and experimentation. I spent a lot of time on my rooftop last year holding a mast and walking over every inch of my roof and raising and lowering the mast... took a while to find the sweet spot, but I did.


Bob C
I took a 32 LCD tv on my roof with me, and a digitial conversion box, to measure signal strength. Had my antenna on a 4 1/2 mast section and carried it around. Was kinda of limited as to where it to actually go, had to be along ridge line and over the garage (power lines within 5 ft of the other side of the house, the further away the higher I could go). Not sure if I did it at the right time though, at night with best signal conditions. Although if I had done it mid day, I would have never found a few stations. 

 

Fun times but glad they are over.
 

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Crazy inversions now, from both the north and south...

 

Picking up KMUM-CD 15 (RF31) 
 
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