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Ran another scan about at around 12:30 today and now all of the Walnut Grove network channels including KOVR 13.1 are coming in. KTVU and KNTV are in and out. See latest data below and attached:

Signal SNR IF-AGC
KTVU FOX 2.1 UHF 68 15 127
LATV ZOO 2.2 70 15 127
Movies 2.3 73 19 127
Buzzr 2.4 71 17 127
KCRA NBC 3-1 UHF 75 20 101
KRON MYTV 4-1 UHF 83 27 100
GET TV 4-3 83 27 106
Grit 4.4 82 27 104
KPIX CBS 5-1 UHF 81 25 101
Decades 5-2 82 25 102
KVIE PBS 6-1 Hi-V 85 28 100
KVIE2 PBS 6-2 85 28 100
KVIE3 PBS 6-3 85 28 100
KGO ABC 7-1 Hi-V 77 22 99
Livewell 7-2 77 22 102
Laff 7-3 75 21 112
KQED PBS 9.1 UHF 86 29 101
KQED PBS 9.2 UHF 86 29 101
KQED PBS 9.3 UHF 86 29 101
KXTV ABC 10-1 Hi-V 70 15 100
KNTV NBC 11-1 Hi-V 87 30 111
Cozi 11-2 70 15 101
KOVR CBS 13-1 UHF 72 18 101
KTXL FOX 40-1 UHF 85 28 101
 

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Ran another scan about at around 12:30 today and now all of the Walnut Grove network channels including KOVR 13.1 are coming in. KTVU and KNTV are in and out. See latest data below and attached:

Signal SNR IF-AGC
KTVU FOX 2.1 UHF 68 15 127
LATV ZOO 2.2 70 15 127
Movies 2.3 73 19 127
Buzzr 2.4 71 17 127
KCRA NBC 3-1 UHF 75 20 101
KRON MYTV 4-1 UHF 83 27 100
GET TV 4-3 83 27 106
Grit 4.4 82 27 104
KPIX CBS 5-1 UHF 81 25 101
Decades 5-2 82 25 102
KVIE PBS 6-1 Hi-V 85 28 100
KVIE2 PBS 6-2 85 28 100
KVIE3 PBS 6-3 85 28 100
KGO ABC 7-1 Hi-V 77 22 99
Livewell 7-2 77 22 102
Laff 7-3 75 21 112
KQED PBS 9.1 UHF 86 29 101
KQED PBS 9.2 UHF 86 29 101
KQED PBS 9.3 UHF 86 29 101
KXTV ABC 10-1 Hi-V 70 15 100
KNTV NBC 11-1 Hi-V 87 30 111
Cozi 11-2 70 15 101
KOVR CBS 13-1 UHF 72 18 101
KTXL FOX 40-1 UHF 85 28 101
Updated readings from this morning. KCRA dropped out and KOVR in and out, these are starting to look like my problem stations. Bay Area stations are solid.

7:30 am 1/20/18 Signal SNR IF-AGC
KTVU FOX 2.1 UHF 82 26 127
Movies 2.3 82 26 127
Buzzr 2.4 81 26 127
KCRA NBC 3-1 UHF 0-31
KRON MYTV 4-1 UHF 83 27 105
GET TV 4-3 83 27 106
Grit 4.4 83 27 113
KPIX CBS 5-1 UHF 83 26 103
Decades 5-2 82 26 113
KVIE PBS 6-1 Hi-V 81 25 100
KVIE2 PBS 6-2 81 25 109
KVIE3 PBS 6-3 81 25 109
KGO ABC 7-1 Hi-V 86 29 101
Livewell 7-2 86 29 113
Laff 7-3 75 21 112
KQED PBS 9.1 UHF 88 32 100
KQED PBS 9.2 UHF 88 32 108
KQED PBS 9.3 UHF 88 32 112
KXTV ABC 10-1 Hi-V 78 23 100
Justice 10-2 78 23 110
H&I 10-3 78 23 112
Quest 10-4 78 23 112
KNTV NBC 11-1 Hi-V 78 23 100
Cozi 11-2 78 23 112
KOVR CBS 13-1 UHF 68 15 100
Decades 13-2 70 16 110
ION 29.1 78 23 101
KMAX 31.1 71 17 107
KTXL FOX 40-1 UHF 80 24 101
 

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Updated readings from this morning. KCRA dropped out and KOVR in and out, these are starting to look like my problem stations. Bay Area stations are solid.

7:30 am 1/20/18 Signal SNR

KTVU FOX 2-1 82 26
KCRA NBC 3-1 0-31
KRON MYN 4-1 83 27
KPIX CBS 5-1 83 26
KVIE PBS 6-1 81 25
KGO ABC 7-1 86 29
KQED PBS 9-1 88 32
KXTV ABC 10-1 78 23
KNTV NBC 11-1 78 23
KOVR CBS 13-1 68 15
KSPX ION 29-1 78 23
KMAX CW 31-1 71 17
KTXL FOX 40-1 80 24

No need to list all the sub channels. They're all part of the same data stream. If you get 6-1 you will get 6-2 and 6-3. IF-AGC may be an inverted signal strength meter like it was on my older Sony.

Signal is just a percentage equivalent to SNR. The lower the Signal the lower the SNR. Signal Strength and SNR should be independent of each other but that's not the case here. Users assume Signal Strength is signal strength when it's not.

If you could view the signals on a spectrum analyzer you'd find that the Walnut Grove transmitters are much stronger than the SF transmitters but the SNRs are low due to multipath.

I think you'll find that neither the SF or Walnut Grove stations will be reliable in the long run. SF signals are too weak and the Walnut Grove signals have too much multipath.

If reliability is something you care about then IMO your antenna will need to be high enough to clear the trees and reduce the multipath issues on the Walnut grove stations. I realize that may not be practical. Your location dictates antenna type and placement. No antenna can compensate for a poor location.

I've had good luck with the 91XG UHF antenna. It has the best pattern of any consumer UHF antenna so it rejects off axis multipath the best. But if trees are the cause of the multipath on the direct path then no antenna can fix that.

Chuck
 

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Well I will keep working on it and try to find a combination that works. I'm not opposed to adding another antenna if I need to.
 

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You should go to TVFool, click on "On-Line TV Maps" and re-enter your Exact Address. You will see an ICON at your Location on a Topo Map. Then click on "KCRA" (or whatever) to see a colorized representation of Signal Strength in your neighborhood....it appears that you are in a very localized HOT SPOT. [When I took a preliminary look, I moved the ICON until ranges to KCRA and KBIT matched your TVFool Report....give or take 0.1-mile using this Bi-Lateration Technique.]

If your ACTUAL Location is a bit different, Grab the Icon and move it to the Actual Location. Calculated NM(dB) values will automatically update. Perhaps your earlier TVFool Report is off by just a bit???? If so, RIGHT-Click (Open as a New Tab) on the "MAKE RADAR PLOT" Button to see the Updated TVFool Report....and let us know. Note that there is significant change with even less than 0.1-mile correction.

Increasing the Antenna Height (while on the HOT SPOT) made almost NO difference....but you should redo if you have to move the ICON.

================================================
Since your signals are so weak, I would recommend using a STACKED PAIR of Matched Antennas...which will provide not only Combining Gain....but ALSO Space Diversity Gain of perhaps 10-20 dB since Fading on ONE Antenna very rarely occurs on the OTHER Antenna, thereby greatly reducing the probability of BOTH Antennas experiencing a Fade.

I also would highly recommend a ROTATOR....your stations are spread over more than 90-deg of Azimuth....and the ROTATOR can help to maximize Gain while also minimizing Multipath and Interference. Despite the (presumably) Strong Signal Strength predictions, you are in a VERY Difficult Location to receive most stations.

TVFool Calculated KCRA Signal Strength near your estimated Alta Sierra, CA (Bi-Laterated) location:

 

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I have added some interesting repack information to my Re-pack Channel Listing page following the station listings. You might want to check it out:
http://www.choisser.com/sfonair3.html

Larry
 

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Increasing the Antenna Height (while on the HOT SPOT) made almost NO difference....but you should redo if you have to move the ICON.

Since your signals are so weak, I would recommend using a STACKED PAIR of Matched Antennas...which will provide not only Combining Gain....but ALSO Space Diversity Gain of perhaps 10-20 dB since Fading on ONE Antenna very rarely occurs on the OTHER Antenna, thereby greatly reducing the probability of BOTH Antennas experiencing a Fade.

Increasing antenna height doesn't show any improvement on his TV Fool report because the stations are already LOS. The reduction in multipath with height would greatly improve his signals. His photo clearly shows the signals are passing through thick vegetation, something TV Fool can't account for.

We have no evidence to suggest his signals are weak. I highly doubt stacking antennas would do anything for him. You post all the time about Space Diversity Gain but I have yet to see any real world tests to show this exists with fixed antennas. I have two sets of antennas here spaced 90' apart. If signals are poor on one antenna they are poor on both. The inversion conditions we get here in the Sierra Foothills affect everyone in the same general time frame. I've checked with a neighbor 1/2 mile away, a friend 5 miles away and a third more than 30 miles away. Everyone has problems at more or less the same time. Having antennas a couple feet apart don't do anything when unfavorable inversions are in place.

I think Space Diversity Gain is something that plays a role in mobile operations but is irrelevant with fixed antennas. It's possible to have antennas a couple feet apart with large differences in signal strength but that doesn't change with inversions. Hot/cold spots are remarkably stable in the long term. This is why you can move an antenna on a roof and find a better spot and have it be stable. Hot spots remain hot spots and cold spots remain cold spots. Signals don't change 10-20 dB in opposite directions on fixed antennas a couple feet apart.

Moving vegetation and wet vegetation can alter signals but two antennas won't fix that either.

Chuck
 

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No need to list all the sub channels. They're all part of the same data stream. If you get 6-1 you will get 6-2 and 6-3. IF-AGC may be an inverted signal strength meter like it was on my older Sony.

Signal is just a percentage equivalent to SNR. The lower the Signal the lower the SNR. Signal Strength and SNR should be independent of each other but that's not the case here. Users assume Signal Strength is signal strength when it's not.

If you could view the signals on a spectrum analyzer you'd find that the Walnut Grove transmitters are much stronger than the SF transmitters but the SNRs are low due to multipath.

I think you'll find that neither the SF or Walnut Grove stations will be reliable in the long run. SF signals are too weak and the Walnut Grove signals have too much multipath.

If reliability is something you care about then IMO your antenna will need to be high enough to clear the trees and reduce the multipath issues on the Walnut grove stations. I realize that may not be practical. Your location dictates antenna type and placement. No antenna can compensate for a poor location.

I've had good luck with the 91XG UHF antenna. It has the best pattern of any consumer UHF antenna so it rejects off axis multipath the best. But if trees are the cause of the multipath on the direct path then no antenna can fix that.

Chuck
Good info, Thanks. I will continue to log my signal data and post it here. I realize the sample size is pretty small, but it still looks like KOVR and KCRA are my problem Sac stations and KNTV is the Bay Area station that drops out. Probably wishful thinking, but if I can put up a separate antenna for KOVR and KCRA that is a reasonable solution. Only time will tell....
 

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Below are my latest readings with KOVR and KCRA still low. I did notice that 2.3 was dropping in and out and had lower signals than 2.1 which was odd...

3:30PM 1/23/18 Signal SNR IF-AGC
KTVU FOX 2.1 UHF 77 22 127
KCRA NBC 3-1 UHF 73 19 100
KRON MYTV 4-1 UHF 82 26 103
KPIX CBS 5-1 UHF 75 21 104
KVIE PBS 6-1 Hi-V 85 28 100
KGO ABC 7-1 Hi-V 82 25 100
KQED PBS 9.1 UHF 87 31 100
KXTV ABC 10-1 Hi-V 80 24 99
KNTV NBC 11-1 Hi-V 80 24 100
KOVR CBS 13-1 UHF 71 17 101
ION 29.1 UHF 78 23 99
KMAX 31.1 UHF 71 17 100
KTXL FOX 40-1 UHF 85 28 100
 

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...and KNTV is the Bay Area station that drops out.
I don't see any Spanish-language stations on your list, but I presume that's because you left them out rather than you don't receive them.

If you can receive KSTS Telemundo 48 out of San Jose, you'll find KNTV on a sub-channel with PSIP of 11.3.

For me in Concord, it's much more reliable than the San Francisco transmitter because of the topography.
 

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I don't see any Spanish-language stations on your list, but I presume that's because you left them out rather than you don't receive them.

If you can receive KSTS Telemundo 48 out of San Jose, you'll find KNTV on a sub-channel with PSIP of 11.3.

For me in Concord, it's much more reliable than the San Francisco transmitter because of the topography.
When I scan I am getting like 93 channels but I am only listing the ones we are interested in watching.
 

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Funny you should mention KTXL... It seems to have disappeared for me. Anyone elese? I'm in 95688.
Well, it turns out I have a situation in which one tuner and antenna combination leaves me with no signal for KTXL. If I swap the tuner, or the antenna, KTXL is just fine. This occurred recently... maybe rain water got into my cable run?
 

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I tried pointing my antenna at the Walnut Grove tower rather than between the gaps in the trees. Not a noticeable difference, everything except KTVU is good at the moment but overall KOVR and KCRA continue to be the most erratic. Interestingly enough, the PBS channels 6.1 and 9.1 have the strongest and most consistent signals. I am going to try adding an antenna to see if I can get KOVR and KCRA.....

Below are my latest numbers:

1/28 12:30 Signal SNR IF-AGC
FOX 2.1 UHF 0
NBC 3-1 UHF 81 25 99
MYTV 4-1 UHF 75 20 101
CBS 5-1 UHF 81 25 102
PBS 6-1 Hi-V 90 32 100
ABC 7-1 Hi-V 80 24 100
PBS 9.1 UHF 87 30 99
ABC 10-1 Hi-V 87 30 99
NBC 11-1 Hi-V 77 22 100
CBS 13-1 UHF 82 27 100
ION 29.1 UHF 82 26 99
KMAX 31.1 UHF 86 29 100
FOX 40-1 UHF 85 29 100
 

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Winter Olympics Doldrums...

With NBC coverage of the Winter Olympics on KCRA, KNTV, and KSBW, mostly unviewable in the Sierra foothills, and repeats on every other channel due to the Olympics, I am grateful that Quest on 10.4 has timely begun programming. I guess I will be tuned to Quest for the next 2 weeks as the only source of new programming to watch....:frown:
 

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Well I tried adding another antenna this weekend, a Solid Signal HDB88X-NI. Thought I was on to something at first with strong signals on my problem channels on Sunday, but after a while both 3.1 and 13.1 went away. And of course 11.1 went away so we had to watch the Superbowl over Dish.....

Tried raising and lowering it and nothing changed so I am probably going to send it back and stick with the Winegard which as stronger signals all the way around.

I know I am not alone with my frustration of not being able to get these channels, don't the networks have a responsibility to provide a working solution for all in their service area?
 

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I know I am not alone with my frustration of not being able to get these channels, don't the networks have a responsibility to provide a working solution for all in their service area?

No. There are lots of people who live in places where OTA is impossible. Terrain makes it impossible to cover every nook and cranny. I can't receive any of the Walnut Grove stations with an antenna at my house. Only a 70' tower 100' up the hill at the top end of my property makes it possible.

Chuck
 
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