[jalopez]

I'm looking for two TV, one for our bedroom and another for a family room, and I've narrowed it down to the these two models. I've seen a couple of other threads on this topic but little substance as to why people were recommending one model over the other.


Which one would you get and why? Would you consider another model at a similar price point?


Thanks in advance!

Tony

SF

 

[Nielo TM]

Both are excellent sets and I reviewed the 46" B750 about a year ago.



In the end, it all depends on your requirements

 

[jalopez]

Thanks for the quick reply. When you say, 'Your requirements' what are the things that I should consider and how would they impact the decision.


I need two tvs, and one room is well lit while viewing in the other room will be in the dark. Both TVs will mostly be movies and bit of sports.

 

[Nielo TM]

Is it possible for you to wait for the G20?



PS: Could you please fill this out, so it's easier for us to help.

• Budget?
• Preferred screen size?
• Screen resolution?
• Utilization of the TV (e.g. 20% Blu-Ray, 30% DVD, 20% Gaming and 30% Sky HD/SD)?
• Are you prone to rainbow and green trail effects on plasma display panels?
• Will the TV be used as monitor via VGA, DVI or HDMI (e.g. Browsing the net, word processing, gaming etc)?
• Will the TV be used to watch Downloads, DVDs and Blu-Rays via PC (HTPC)?
• How big is the room (optional)?
• Viewing distance?
• Is ambient light an issue (Big Windows / Patio Doors nearby)?
• Do you prefer online or high-street retailer?
• Does the look of the TV important?
• Do you wish to purchase it ASAP or in few weeks?
• List all of your current A/V devices (including future purchasers).
• Any additional comment, requests, considerations that you think are important that we should consider?

 

[Mr Deap]

I believe most people don't own both nor I.(sarcasm)

Well plasma have better motion resolution for the start up & it's a better pleasure to watch low hz content because there's no trailing. It suffer from dithering which is only with plasma, but this effect is not very noticeable under use as you can see on demo at retail store.


LCD on the other side have better static picture because there's no dithering. Since it work with a back light a full screen white look more vivid. Since the Sammy is a PVA type of LCD, you may have disrupt viewing angle that can change the pattern of the color on all 4 corner of the screen in this size. Motion resolution is incredible bad & make stuff feel unnatural.


The problem I have with Samsung panel is that they have bad input lag & if you are a gamer, I would definitely go with the Panasonic without question even if you intend to use it as a desktop. indeed, the difference is like night & day. Remember that you will be stuck with the panel until you get rid of it indefinitely.

 

[Nielo TM]

LCDs also use dithering but only the ones advertised as 10-bit panel or higher and motion on the B750 is more than acceptable.




PS: We are prone to motion blur, which is why we perceive blur on LCDs and CCD and CMOS do not. The fact of the matter is, blur free motion is unnatural (not the other way around

)

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18218956


LCDs also use dithering but only the ones advertised as 10-bit panel or higher and motion on the B750 is more than acceptable.




PS: We are prone to motion blur, which is why we perceive blur on LCDs and CCD and CMOS do not. The fact of the matter is, blur free motion is unnatural (not the other way around

)

the problem is Plasma due to the way it works makes motion blur both sharper to the human eye and more smooth than LCD does natively without the help from motion enhancement that increases the frame rate, this method of course ends up making most things esp movies look unnatural or unrealistic because half or more of what your eyes are seeing on the screen is generated by the TV and not what your source video is (but it is made up from the source material)


I would vote G10 simply because i prefer Plasma's better motion resolution and viewing angles over LCD's


the B750 is a great LCD TV but the only advantage that LCD can have over the plasma besides lower power consumption and no chance of IR is better brightness in a very sun washed room and almost no glare or reflections but the last one is completely dependent on the LCD being a matte screen and the B750 is very glossy with no AR filter making reflections and glare a bigger problem on it than a G10 plasma that has an AR filter

 

[jalopez]

[*] Is it possible for you to wait for the G20?

Perhaps. When does it come out and what the difference?


[*]Budget?

$800-$1,200


[*]Preferred screen size?

40-42


[*]Screen resolution?

1080p


[*]Utilization of the TV (e.g. 20% Blu-Ray, 30% DVD, 20% Gaming and 30% Sky HD/SD)?

50% ComcastHD/SlingBox

25% DVD

15% AppleTV (or other stream movie service)

10% BluRay (will probably grow overtime)


[*]Are you prone to rainbow and green trail effects on plasma display panels?

I Don't know


[*]Will the TV be used as monitor via VGA, DVI or HDMI (e.g. Browsing the net, word processing, gaming etc)?

Probably not


[*]Will the TV be used to watch Downloads, DVDs and Blu-Rays via PC (HTPC)?

Yes


[*]Viewing distance?

10ft


[*]Is ambient light an issue (Big Windows / Patio Doors nearby)?

In one room, yes. In another room, no. I'm getting two TVs.


[*]Do you prefer online or high-street retailer?

No preference. I'm fine with either but I prefer Authorized dealers.


[*]Does the look of the TV important?

Yes.


[*]Do you wish to purchase it ASAP or in few weeks?

I could go either way. Ideally now.


[*]List all of your current A/V devices (including future purchasers).

DVD BluRay

Apple Tv

Sling Box

ComcastHD


[*]Any additional comment, requests, considerations that you think are important that we should consider?

I have a Sony XBR 3 46 inch that I love.



Thanks for all your help!


Tony

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jalopez /forum/post/18220214


[*] Is it possible for you to wait for the G20?

Perhaps. When does it come out and what the difference?


[*]Budget?

$800-$1,200


[*]Preferred screen size?

40-42


[*]Screen resolution?

1080p


[*]Utilization of the TV (e.g. 20% Blu-Ray, 30% DVD, 20% Gaming and 30% Sky HD/SD)?

50% ComcastHD/SlingBox

25% DVD

15% AppleTV (or other stream movie service)

10% BluRay (will probably grow overtime)


[*]Are you prone to rainbow and green trail effects on plasma display panels?

I Don't know


[*]Will the TV be used as monitor via VGA, DVI or HDMI (e.g. Browsing the net, word processing, gaming etc…)?

Probably not


[*]Will the TV be used to watch Downloads, DVDs and Blu-Rays via PC (HTPC)?

Yes


[*]Viewing distance?

10ft


[*]Is ambient light an issue (Big Windows / Patio Doors nearby)?

In one room, yes. In another room, no. I'm getting two TVs.


[*]Do you prefer online or high-street retailer?

No preference. I'm fine with either but I prefer Authorized dealers.


[*]Does the look of the TV important?

Yes.


[*]Do you wish to purchase it ASAP or in few weeks?

I could go either way. Ideally now.


[*]List all of your current A/V devices (including future purchasers).

DVD BluRay

Apple Tv

Sling Box

ComcastHD


[*]Any additional comment, requests, considerations that you think are important that we should consider?

I have a Sony XBR 3 46 inch that I love.



Thanks for all your help!


Tony

based on the info you have posted 1080p is pointless because a 42" at 10 feet away looks no better than 720p, a 50" TV would still result in little to no difference in picture between the two.


based on your specifications i would say save some cash and buy a Panny 42X1 for the bedroom and get a panny 50X1 or 50S1 if you really want 1080p and this will provide you with the best performance/picture for the money.


exception would be get a matte screen LCD if you have a situation where the TV will be exposed to direct uncontrollable light that would create glare and reflections and in this case a B750 would be worse than a panny plasma with an AR filter (like the X1/S1/G10 plasma do have) so look at sony TV's or a B630 Samsung but i would honestly get a sony or other major brand over samsung, they are not as good as many owners on here will lead you to believe, they have a terrible track record for reliability and their warranty service is crap compared to other major brands.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18219584


the problem is Plasma due to the way it works makes motion blur both sharper to the human eye and more smooth than LCD does natively without the help from motion enhancement that increases the frame rate, this method of course ends up making most things esp movies look unnatural or unrealistic because half or more of what your eyes are seeing on the screen is generated by the TV and not what your source video is (but it is made up from the source material)

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18219584


the B750 is a great LCD TV but the only advantage that LCD can have over the plasma besides lower power consumption and no chance of IR is better brightness in a very sun washed room and almost no glare or reflections but the last one is completely dependent on the LCD being a matte screen and the B750 is very glossy with no AR filter making reflections and glare a bigger problem on it than a G10 plasma that has an AR filter

Actually LCDs can experience IR and permanent screen-damage.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jalopez /forum/post/18220214


Perhaps. When does it come out and what the difference?

I think it should be out now, if not, it should be available in few weeks and Panasonic have improved several aspect, which include single sheet glass, reduce PL, better dithering, lower PWM noise, better AR, deeper blacks etc.


But it will be expensive at fist (just like the G10).



Given your requirements, the G10 is perfectly suitable for the dark room. However, in a bight environment, you may see the inactive phosphors, so blacks can appear gray. However, the B750 has glossy filter, so will also produce glare, but the inactive pixel will appear as black.


In terms of black level in a dark environment, both produce identical black level. The does uses blacklight dimming, but it's barley noticeable and doesn't desaturate the colors.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18220320


based on the info you have posted 1080p is pointless because a 42" at 10 feet away looks no better than 720p, a 50" TV would still result in little to no difference in picture between the two.


based on your specifications i would say save some cash and buy a Panny 42X1 for the bedroom and get a panny 50X1 or 50S1 if you really want 1080p and this will provide you with the best performance/picture for the money.

720p sets should be avoided unless budget is the primary factor.


Non-of the 720p range feature Panasonic's Neo-PDP panel and it's best to opt for the G10 and higher if PQ is a factor.


Remember, there's more to IQ then just resolution.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18220320


i would honestly get a sony or other major brand over samsung, they are not as good as many owners on here will lead you to believe, they have a terrible track record for reliability and their warranty service is crap compared to other major brands.

Samsung TVs have evolved and they are on par and better than Sony in some areas.


Reliability is a problem that affect all displays and warranty is another matter.

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18220551


Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean






Actually LCDs can experience IR and permanent screen-damage.

Some types of LCD's that are very uncommon can get Temp IR from bright images being left on the screen for too long, i have a PC monitor that does this and its completely reversible but turning the LCD off for a few days so the LC's can loose the stickyness that happens from too much overdrive that caused the problem.


other than that i've not once seen or have heard of perm IR on an LCD, it simply cannot happen to them because they have no phosphors to wear down they are just giant switching liquid crystal matrix's and trust me if you could burn in an LCD i would have done it to both my TV and PC monitor that i use with my PC and leave on 24/7/365 for years (well i leave the 22" monitor on for that long my TV i do shut off but it still gets tons of static images left on it for long periods of time)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18220802


720p sets should be avoided unless budget is the primary factor.


Non-of the 720p range feature Panasonic's Neo-PDP panel and it's best to opt for the G10 and higher if PQ is a factor.


Remember, there's more to IQ then just resolution.

having owned a Panny 50X1 720p plasma and viewed a buddy's new Panny 50S1 1080p the increase in picture quality is negligible at 10 feet away, at 6 feet the 1080p neoPDP definitely has a better picture and shows more detail but 10 feet is simply too far to see it on a 50" display. black levels are more or less equal between the two displays and other users measurements with meters show this as well. the G10 is s setup up in PQ from both but an average person will be very happy with the PQ of an 50X1 or 50S1 at 10 feet away if going down to a 42" size and viewing it from 10 feet 1080p is completely pointless because you need to be close than 10 feet to even see the full detail in a 720p image let alone 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18220584


I think it should be out now, if not, it should be available in few weeks and Panasonic have improved several aspect, which include single sheet glass, reduce PL, better dithering, lower PWM noise, better AR, deeper blacks etc.


But it will be expensive at fist (just like the G10).



Given your requirements, the G10 is perfectly suitable for the dark room. However, in a bight environment, you may see the inactive phosphors, so blacks can appear gray. However, the B750 has glossy filter, so will also produce glare, but the inactive pixel will appear as black.


In terms of black level in a dark environment, both produce identical black level. The does uses blacklight dimming, but it's barley noticeable and doesn't desaturate the colors.

the sort of across the whole screen dimming that a B750 LCD does damages picture quality very very much, if that TV is not dimming its black levels cannot compare to any current Panasonic plasma only local dimming LCD are able to match or beat them in black levels and this is only the case when viewing the TV in it's sweet spot, off angles will still be less black than a plasma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18220809


Samsung TVs have evolved and they are on par and better than Sony in some areas.


Reliability is a problem that affect all displays and warranty is another matter.

recent samsung TV's appear to be reliable but only time will tell because it has taken 3 years for their LCD's that have had massive power supply failures to start failing en mass and the 2007 Samsung LCD's are dropping like flys these days according to TV repairmen as the sheer number of complaints filed on the internet. its rather astounding and caused by the use of the wrong capacitors in their power supplies this plus samsungs terrible warranty/customer service record should be known to people potentially looking into buying their products.


if you don't think so take some time reading this

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...amsung_tv.html


then compare that to panasonics complaints on that site, they have no where near as many recent complaints as samsung and most of the compaints on Panasonic TV's are for the bulbs going out on their old LCD RPTV's that have been discontinued for awhile now and every brand had that problem with their LCD RPTV's it was common and normal in many cases. you will rarely find a complaint on their plasma's or LCD TV's and if you do its likely to be one of the older plasma models that had defective power supplies and panasonic admitted the problem and fixed peoples TV's even out of warranty to correct the issue, samsung's problem is much worse and they will not fess up to it or replace these TV's out of warranty for anyone.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...ic_lcd_tv.html


electronics fail and people will always complain when it happens to such an expensive item if the problem is not corrected promptly but the sheet number of recent complaints on samsung TV's is truly astounding imho


here's sony for good measure

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...s/sony_tv.html


much like panasonic no where near as many complaints and most of them are not against their recent LCD TV's unlike Samsung.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222278


Some types of LCD's that are very uncommon can get Temp IR from bright images being left on the screen for too long, i have a PC monitor that does this and its completely reversible but turning the LCD off for a few days so the LC's can loose the stickyness that happens from too much overdrive that caused the problem.


other than that i've not once seen or have heard of perm IR on an LCD, it simply cannot happen to them because they have no phosphors to wear down they are just giant switching liquid crystal matrix's and trust me if you could burn in an LCD i would have done it to both my TV and PC monitor that i use with my PC and leave on 24/7/365 for years (well i leave the 22" monitor on for that long my TV i do shut off but it still gets tons of static images left on it for long periods of time)

It is not as simple as that


Each pixel is composed of LC along with transistor and capacitor. AM-LCDs work by actively holding an image/charge for a set period time, so in other words, during each pass, the capacitor is charged and transistor is continuously powered.


With the addition of over amplification, pixels can degrade faster due the usual wear and tear.


The end result is, prolonged latency (similar to MPEG-NR set too high) or non-uniform brightness.



The F-LCD currently (under development) only require power during transition, therefore, it's immune from IR and burn-in

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-l...n-problem.html



PS: It doesn't matter what you leave on the panel and it depends on the panel mode (VA, IPS etc.), over-drive level, temp etc.

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM /forum/post/18222446


It is not as simple as that


Each pixel is composed of LC along with transistor and capacitor. AM-LCDs work by actively holding an image for a set period time, so in other words, during each pass, the capacitor is charged and transistor is continuously powered.


With the addition of over amplification, pixels can degrade faster due wear and tear.


The end result is, prolonged latency (similar to NR set too high) or non-uniformed brightness.



The F-LCD currently under development only require power during transition, which is immune from IR and burn-in

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-l...n-problem.html

yes that over amplification as you call it is pixel overdrive my 19" viewsonic made in 2006 has the early version of this that will cause what your describing to happen and its completely reversible when it does happen by simply shutting it off for a few days


RTC (overdrive) has been improved very much in recent years and this problem as well as other ones it used to have like inverse ghosting are gone.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222278


black levels are more or less equal between the two displays and other users measurements with meters show this as well.

At 3m, 1080p doesn't offer anything extra, but I find it hard to believe the X series can match the NeoPDP in terms of black level. The G10 can archive 0.04 without any effort and can be reduced further at the cost of luminance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222278


electronics fail and people will always complain when it happens to such an expensive item if the problem is not corrected promptly but the sheet number of recent complaints on samsung TV's is truly astounding imho

You also have to factor in the sales ratio. For an example, Samsung sells more TVs than competing manufactures, which means number of faulty sets will also increase accordingly.


I am not stating that Samsung is perfect or better in terms of reliability, but these days, there are just too many factors to consider.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222468


RTC (overdrive) has been improved very much in recent years and this problem as well as other ones it used to have like inverse ghosting are gone.

I really like to believe that accept, the Toshiba 32" I recently reviewed had the worst over-drive error I've seen thus far. It also affected certain 32" XBR rage in the U.S.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/toshi...0090818158.htm



In any case, the issue of over-drive is still a major problem (specially among VA based panels). Hopefully with the advent of 3DTVs, manufactures will finally stat addressing it

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222278


Some types of LCD's that are very uncommon can get Temp IR from bright images being left on the screen for too long, i have a PC monitor that does this and its completely reversible but turning the LCD off for a few days so the LC's can loose the stickyness that happens from too much overdrive that caused the problem.


other than that i've not once seen or have heard of perm IR on an LCD, it simply cannot happen to them because they have no phosphors to wear down they are just giant switching liquid crystal matrix's and trust me if you could burn in an LCD i would have done it to both my TV and PC monitor that i use with my PC and leave on 24/7/365 for years (well i leave the 22" monitor on for that long my TV i do shut off but it still gets tons of static images left on it for long periods of time)



having owned a Panny 50X1 720p plasma and viewed a buddy's new Panny 50S1 1080p the increase in picture quality is negligible at 10 feet away, at 6 feet the 1080p neoPDP definitely has a better picture and shows more detail but 10 feet is simply too far to see it on a 50" display. black levels are more or less equal between the two displays and other users measurements with meters show this as well. the G10 is s setup up in PQ from both but an average person will be very happy with the PQ of an 50X1 or 50S1 at 10 feet away if going down to a 42" size and viewing it from 10 feet 1080p is completely pointless because you need to be close than 10 feet to even see the full detail in a 720p image let alone 1080p.




the sort of across the whole screen dimming that a B750 LCD does damages picture quality very very much, if that TV is not dimming its black levels cannot compare to any current Panasonic plasma only local dimming LCD are able to match or beat them in black levels and this is only the case when viewing the TV in it's sweet spot, off angles will still be less black than a plasma.




recent samsung TV's appear to be reliable but only time will tell because it has taken 3 years for their LCD's that have had massive power supply failures to start failing en mass and the 2007 Samsung LCD's are dropping like flys these days according to TV repairmen as the sheer number of complaints filed on the internet. its rather astounding and caused by the use of the wrong capacitors in their power supplies this plus samsungs terrible warranty/customer service record should be known to people potentially looking into buying their products.


if you don't think so take some time reading this

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...amsung_tv.html


then compare that to panasonics complaints on that site, they have no where near as many recent complaints as samsung and most of the compaints on Panasonic TV's are for the bulbs going out on their old LCD RPTV's that have been discontinued for awhile now and every brand had that problem with their LCD RPTV's it was common and normal in many cases. you will rarely find a complaint on their plasma's or LCD TV's and if you do its likely to be one of the older plasma models that had defective power supplies and panasonic admitted the problem and fixed peoples TV's even out of warranty to correct the issue, samsung's problem is much worse and they will not fess up to it or replace these TV's out of warranty for anyone.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...ic_lcd_tv.html


electronics fail and people will always complain when it happens to such an expensive item if the problem is not corrected promptly but the sheet number of recent complaints on samsung TV's is truly astounding imho


here's sony for good measure

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_...s/sony_tv.html


much like panasonic no where near as many complaints and most of them are not against their recent LCD TV's unlike Samsung.

If you want impartial information about LCDs and Plasma, you might want to start here:

http://video.consumerreports.org/ser...tid=1280500146


The video will give you the basics. For detailed information about both of the models you are interested in, spend $5.95 for 30 days access to the detailed pros and cons of both models. They have video engineers doing their testing. Here is where you can sign-up for 30 days:

https://ec.consumerreports.org/ec/cro/order.htm


You will also get reliability information based on surveys of 118,700 LCD owners, and 40,072 plasma owners.

 

[Nielo TM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18222278


the sort of across the whole screen dimming that a B750 LCD does damages picture quality very very much,

Actually no and it is a common myth.


The answer depends on the difference/range between the two black values. If the range is too high, then yes, it will negatively impact the IQ. But if the range is restricted, the change in APL is negligible.


The 46B750 I reviewed yielded 0.07cmd2 without dimming and 0.04cmd2 with dimming. Since the difference was limited to 0.03, I failed to notice any fluctuate APL during passive and active viewing.