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Prices?


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Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
 

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If the observations reported here are true, perception of screen door increases significantly with brightness. So you may want to include a depixelizer lens in any installation of this projector.


At some point, I would think these projectors would be too bright for an HT installation.


Dan
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DanHouck:
If the observations reported here are true, perception of screen door increases significantly with brightness.


Dan
The Sanyo XP21N has 2500 lumens and has minimal screen door effect, so I am not sure that is a good generalization.
 

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I see no reason to pay for 3500 ANSI for home use. Unless you are going to use it in your family room and you have lots of windows and lots of light and you plan to watch it during the day.


Save your money and get a 1000 ANSI -1500 ANSI..which is plenty bright for home use.
 

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Jonmx:


The 21N has MLA. I'm not sure if the 30 also has it. I was thinking about screen door perception between the 21, 30 and possibly the new 40. All other things being equal, I'd expect perception of screendoor to increase with brightness.


Big Picture:


That's my feeling as well. I want to watch movies, not get a sun tan! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Dan
 

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I have lots of windows and plan on using a projector in the day.


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Ken Elliott
 

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The reason projectors are getting brighter is also a direct result that the lamp manufacturers get really good results from their research lately. The lamps used did not exist 10 years ago. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the extra price is minimal cause they just use the most recent developed lamps.


[This message has been edited by Kjelt (edited 07-26-2001).]
 

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3500 ANSI Lumens

800:1

DVI

37 dBA

3D Digital Progressive Scan

3D Digital Noise Reduction

Detachable Input Panel

USB

200W UHP(Maybe less expensive than the 250W NSH)


Peter
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

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Anybody that says that it is too bright for Home Theater doesn't know what is talking about. I have a 3000lumens projector and it has a perfect light output anything less I would rather watch tube TV.
 

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From my experience you need at least 2200 ansi lumens for a projector you can flip on and watch like a TV anytime you want. I had a 1900 ansi lumen and it was barely adequate during the daytime and I agree that 3000 ansi lumens would even be better and is what I would have if I could afford it. I don't think the amount of light output of the projector has anything to do with screen door perception unless you have a super dim unit of 4-500 lumens. I do believe that there is difference between the LCD panels made by Epson and Sony in terms of screen door perception. I don't know who makes the panels that Mitsubishi uses and I believe Sanyo uses Sony panels but in comparing the Mits X390 to the Sanyo 21N-I felt the screen door was much more noticeable with Sanyo as compared with the Mits.
 

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Leckian:


I understood that Sanyo used Sony panels for the PLV60 but Epson for their 4:3 projectors. Epson panels come with or without MLA. For example, the XP18N doesn't have it, the XP21N does. What I'm having a hard time finding out is whether the XP30 has it and will this new XP45 have it.


How did the X390 compare with the XP21N in other matters?


Dan
 

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Dan-

The comparison would be from memory since I saw Dan G.'s Sanyo at his house on a white screen and I have the Mits X390 at my house on a gray screen. I thought the black level on the Sanyo was richer but I was very satisfied with the black level of the X390. The image quality of the Sanyo was superb but I did notice the screen door all the time. With the Mits the screen door was less apparent to me and image was gorgeous as well. The Mits worked perfect out of the box hooked up to a GeForce equipped HTPC with both the Mits and the geForce at default color/brightness/contrast settings. It was so good I had no urge at all to play with any of the settings. What impressed me was I could use it during the day and it looked perfect and very bright without having to make any adjustments to compensate for the ambient light. The scaler in the Mits going from the s-video is not very good for DVD. It looked pretty good though for Playstaton 2. I also had a 1900 lumen Sanyo the PLC-XP10NA which has the microlens array and I definitely felt the Sanyo's screen door was more pronounced than the Mits X390.
 

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Leckian:

Very interesting observations. There is one thing that may affect the perception of screen door. Your gray screen apparently reduces it and Dan's screen, which I think is 1.3 gain, may enhance it. I'm going to use a Grayhawk as well. Black level is important to me and it is noteworthy that you saw it to be higher on Dan's white screen than on your grey screen. I'm betting the difference would be very significant when compared on the same gray screen.


What do you think?


Dan
 

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Dan-

You don't really need a gray screen to get satisfying black level with the Sanyo. I was very impressed with Dan G.'s setup, who uses a Quadscan, by the way. Yes the gray definitely would increase the black level of the Sanyo and might help mask the screen door as well. However I had the Sanyo PLC-XP10NA on the same gray screen as the Mits and the screen door on the Sanyo was more apparent. All and all I would think the Sanyo on a Grayhawk would be a very pretty sight. If I had to choose which projector I would want between the two I would love to compare them side by side. Just from memory I would take the Mits because I found the black level satisfying and the screen door less apparent.
 

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A while ago I did a back of the envelope estimate of optimal black level in a 10 lux ambient on a 30 sq. ft. screen and it came out to be about 5000 lumens with a .1 gain screen.


I'll settle for 3500 lumens on a .5 gain screen.


By the way, the ~15 ft-Lambert bantered around is only for an extremely well controlled low ambient theater.


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Ken Elliott
 

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Ken

From your picture, it looks like you have a nice sun tan. Is that from your projector? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


With the XP21N on a 6' x 8' screen, and really knocking effective output down for calibration, bulb aging and 0.95 screen I still come up with 37 lumens/square foot. How's that translate to ft-lamberts?


Dan
 

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Actually 5000 lumens is still not perfectly ideal. The argument goes like the following:


Suppose you start with a room ambient at 10.76 lux. At a gain of 1, if the black level illuminating the screen is equal to the ambient, we have 1 ft-candle illuminance or 1 ft-Lambert luminance leaving the screen.


This is not high ambient. If you want an idea of how bright it is, get a candle and hold a piece of paper 1 ft away in a black room. The average nighttime home interior is about 50 lux.


For a 500:1 contrast ratio, the white level is 500x the black level or an illuminance of 500 ft-Lamberts. Since you don't want all this bouncing around the room, you use a gain=.1 screen to get a luminance of .1*500=50ft-Lamberts.

Since a gain of .1 looks pretty dark compared to most backgrounds, you will always see it as black. For a 30 sq. ft. screen, one gets a required illuminance of 500*30 =15000 lumens!!


One can work backwards to find how dim a room needs to be to get a good contrast ratio for a given projector. 3000 lumens/30 sq. ft. = 100 ft-C white illuminance. 100/500=.2 ft-C black illuminance or about 2 lux maximum ambient.


Thus for 30 sq. ft. and a contrast ratio of 500.

3000 lumens => 2 lux

1500 lumens => 1 lux

750 lumens => .5 lux


Hence the need for controlled lighting for most projectors.


Note that ft-candles is the illuminance or light hitting the screen and ft-Lamberts is the luminance or light coming from the screen.


To get really confused check out: http://energy.arce.ukans.edu/book/light/chap1.htm#UNITS

It has a nice diagram


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Ken Elliott


[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 07-28-2001).]
 

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Ken:


Wow, really great explanation. BUT. . . (talking LCD here)


1. Don't you tend to lose both black level and contrast as you put more and more light through the same basic chips? In other words, what you are gaining at the screen you may be losing and then some, at the projector?


2. Don't you tend to perceive screen door more?


Dan


PS. Does anyone know if this new one has MLA? The XP30 does not, I finally was able to find out.




[This message has been edited by DanHouck (edited 07-28-2001).]
 
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