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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am just getting the gray scale adjusted on a Sanyo PLV-Z60 so color is next. I have read that the CMS in the Sanyo projectors (e.g. Z4 and Z5) is not a true CMS. It allows you to slightly adjust color, phase, and gamma of a screen captured color. So far I have just tried to get the lunimance of red correct based on Tom's guide using the overall color control and then align the location of the secondaries using tint and based on the calculated values from the Accupel calculator. I was wondering if anyone has had any success in getting a better delta E using these controls, or is it a waste of time. Thanks for any feedback.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So, I put up the 75% stim window for green (AVS709 disc) and engaged the CMS. It shows a target then it allows me to adjust COLOR, PHASE, and GAMMA. When I adjusted COLOR and PHASE the only thing that happens is the Y value for green changes. Which is good so I should be able to dial in my color brightness, but I was hoping that I could back off the saturation a bit with the PHASE control. It doesn't look like I can change the x,y of the primaries. I have not tried the GAMMA control for color yet. Anybody have any thoughts. Surely someone has used this CMS on a Sanyo, Z5 or Z4?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm still looking for a little feedback on the CMS on the Sanyo's (PLV-Z60 or other). Anyone?

Thanks.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht /forum/post/15579731


So, I put up the 75% stim window for green (AVS709 disc) and engaged the CMS. It shows a target then it allows me to adjust COLOR, PHASE, and GAMMA. When I adjusted COLOR and PHASE the only thing that happens is the Y value for green changes. Which is good so I should be able to dial in my color brightness, but I was hoping that I could back off the saturation a bit with the PHASE control. It doesn't look like I can change the x,y of the primaries. I have not tried the GAMMA control for color yet. Anybody have any thoughts. Surely someone has used this CMS on a Sanyo, Z5 or Z4?

Ordinarily, Color would be the Brightness and Phase would be the Hue. Gamma is for gray scale adjustments, not the CMS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you, Tom. That is what I was thinking but I'm still a little confused. There are separate controls in a different section of the menu for gamma including Gamma R, Gamma G and Gamma B and I assume those are for adjusting the gray scale (gamma). I've attached the page from the owners manual that explains the 'CMS' for the Sanyo. For example, when I measured green at 75% stim., the point plots outside of the gammut (oversaturated). When I initially adjusted COLOR it only changed the brightness. When I adjusted the GAMMA in the CMS then the COLOR, I was able to move the green point closer to the target. It actually moved in (less saturated). When I adjust the PHASE, as you would expect, the point moves slightly each direction that is perpendicular to a line intersecting my white point. So that would be the angle to the white point, as you put in your guide.

 

PLV-Z60_Manual_CMS.pdf 27.66015625k . file
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I thought I read that the Sanyo 'CMS' is similar to the Sony CMS. Does anyone know if that is true? I think the Sony version is called RCP (Real Color Processing). Since the Sony's don't make the CMS list I am guessing that it's not a true CMS.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht /forum/post/15603293


When I initially adjusted COLOR it only changed the brightness. When I adjusted the GAMMA in the CMS then the COLOR, I was able to move the green point closer to the target. It actually moved in (less saturated). When I adjust the PHASE, as you would expect, the point moves slightly each direction that is perpendicular to a line intersecting my white point. So that would be the angle to the white point, as you put in your guide.

Angryht,


I saw your post in the other thread. My mistake regarding your display not having a CMS. What colors do you get to choose in the list? Is it the 6 primary and secondary colors? I would wonder if this is just affecting individual colors within the gamut or if it's actually affecting the entire gamut.

What happens if you just adjust gamma - does it do anything? I would guess Color Level is a brightness control and Color Phase is a Hue control. That only leaves saturation but calling it 'Gamma' seems a bit odd.


cheers,



--tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasl /forum/post/16414774


What colors do you get to choose in the list? Is it the 6 primary and secondary colors? I would wonder if this is just affecting individual colors within the gamut or if it's actually affecting the entire gamut.

That's the weird thing, you pick the colors to adjust. When you engage the color management function the picture freezes and you get move the color selection 'cross hair'. You move it to the color you want to adjust. So it's like it takes a snap shot of the color then allows you to adjust it. I have put up test patterns and then tried to move the point closer to the correct gamut targets.
Quote:
What happens if you just adjust gamma - does it do anything? I would guess Color Level is a brightness control and Color Phase is a Hue control. That only leaves saturation but calling it 'Gamma' seems a bit odd.

It's been a while since I did anything with it so I would need to get into it again and report back. I guess I was surprised that I hadn't heard from very many people who had used this. I kind of figured it might not be that useful. Gamma adjustment in a color management tool seems 'off' to me too (as Tom Huffman commented earlier). I'll need to dive back in and see what happens. I just didn't want to waste time running in circles which is why I wanted to see if anyone else had experience with this control.


Thanks again for your help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Tom,


FYI. My post #5 has a pdf showing the page from the manual which explains the 'cross-hair' color selection.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht /forum/post/16415372


Tom,


FYI. My post #5 has a pdf showing the page from the manual which explains the 'cross-hair' color selection.

Angryht,


I did take a look at that and just by coincidence, the HT magazine that arrived today has a review of a Sanyo projector. Thomas Norton seems to have tried to use the Sanyo CMS to no avail and ended up leaving it off according to the article. My guess is then that you probably want to leave it off and just use color/tint to get the color decoding as neutral as you can. It's funny how some companies seem to be able to produce working CMSes and others can't (or won't).


cheers,



--tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I think you're right, Tom. For now I think it will stay off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I haven't messed with it lately but I might give it another try. I've been inspired by the new AVFoundry product but my budget probably won't allow it. I found one post from a Z2000 owner who had it professionally calibrated and the CMS was adjusted. I'd still like to hear if anyone has had any success using the Sanyo CMS...anyone??? Is it preferable to use the 100% saturated test patterns?
 

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We recently got a Sanyo projector (actually an Eiki, but it's the same thing with a different label on the outside), and the whole "CMS" thing boggled me. I had my eye-one out to do all the other calibrations and thought I'd mess with the CMS to see what it did. Honestly, I don't know. I pulled up test patterns and adjusted green, and I was able to move the point a little bit on the CIE triangle, but I wasn't really sure whether I was actually adjusting the primaries or somehow just changing a given shade of a given color. In other words, even if I could get my test colors to measure well, I still wasn't confident that it would affect the rest of the picture. After messing with it a while, I concluded that the whole thing was just too weird, and since I didn't know whether it would really help, I decided to just leave it off. If you get it figured out, I'd love to know how it works, but it baffled me too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I may be on to something! My results are in the attached file. I used Tom Huffman's spreadsheet to compare.


The green for my PLV Z60 is pretty oversaturated. I put up the 100% saturation window for green (AVS HD 709 disc) and engaged the CMS, just kept the little target in the center of the window pattern. I adjusted the controls and I was able to move the green point (on the u' v' CIE chart) in closer to the rec 709 target. I also adjusted blue to get closer to the target. I left red alone. The result for green looks pretty good. It looks like I have cut my delta E in half, even though it's still pretty far off. For the blue, it looks like I have gone backwards a bit. Please take a look.

 

1 Copy of dE-All.zip 34.154296875k . file
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here are my results in table form:

BEFORE
RedGreenBlueYellowCyanMagentaWhiteComments
x0.6428960.3136040.1392440.4440560.2137840.3174220.312671Nothing managed
y0.3471450.6701950.0510410.5445340.3156320.1547290.329689
Y3.69979712.380521.20415515.1902312.809436.26938215.94909
Y percent0.2319754730.7762530.07550.952420.8031450.393087
Error from REC 709
L Error3.8%3.3%2.2%1.0%0.8%14.3%
S Error-4.3%13.5%6.7%16.5%10.0%-1.5%
H Error4.3%-4.6%-2.0%-0.5%11.1%-1.8%
Y target based on existing primaries
Y Target0.2379077960.6952020.066890.933110.7620920.304798
Error from Custom Gamut
L Error-1.3%4.5%6.0%0.8%9.1%10.9%
S Error0.0%0.0%0.0%0.7%1.3%-0.5%
H Error0.0%0.0%0.0%1.3%7.4%2.6%
AFTER
RedGreenBlueYellowCyanMagentaWhiteComments
x0.6409690.3086310.1391430.4448680.213670.3222860.31621Green managed
y0.3484230.6432140.0508310.5372710.3145520.1584830.328789
Y3.74664112.082891.35717516.7323914.291136.41817117.14846
Y percent0.2184826510.7046050.0791430.9757370.8333770.374271
Error from REC 709
L Error1.2%-0.6%4.6%2.0%2.2%12.1%
S Error-5.3%8.5%6.8%14.7%10.0%-3.1%
H Error4.3%-3.2%-2.0%-3.1%12.1%0.8%
Y target based on existing primaries
Y Target0.248066150.6878840.0640490.9359510.7519340.312116
Error from Custom Gamut
L Error-3.8%0.5%10.7%1.7%3.6%9.1%
S Error0.0%0.0%0.0%3.7%2.4%0.4%
H Error0.0%0.0%0.0%1.3%6.8%1.1%
It seems like the green is a bit closer to the target gamma (REC 709). Since red brightness is a little low and blue is a little high, it seems like the user color control may get closer (to the custom gamut that is) with a click or two up from the current position. Anybody else have any thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So I bumped up the color one click and I think I'm done. My red brightness got much closer to the custom gamut and green is still improved. I think this is the best I can do for now. The table below shows my before and after. The green saturation has come closer to the REC 709 target.


BEFORE
RedGreenBlueYellowCyanMagentaWhiteComments
x0.6428960.3136040.1392440.4440560.2137840.3174220.312671Nothing managed
y0.3471450.6701950.0510410.5445340.3156320.1547290.329689
Y3.69979712.3805191.20415515.19023112.8094336.26938215.949087
Y percent0.2319754730.7762525220.0754999330.9524200980.8031452210.393087203
Error from REC 709
L Error3.8%3.3%2.2%1.0%0.8%14.3%
S Error-4.3%13.5%6.7%16.5%10.0%-1.5%
H Error4.3%-4.6%-2.0%-0.5%11.1%-1.8%
Y target based on existing primaries
Y Target0.2379077960.6952018570.0668903470.9331096530.7620922040.304798143
Error from Custom Gamut
L Error-1.3%4.5%6.0%0.8%9.1%10.9%
S Error0.0%0.0%0.0%0.7%1.3%-0.5%
H Error0.0%0.0%0.0%1.3%7.4%2.6%
AFTER
RedGreenBlueYellowCyanMagentaWhiteComments
x0.6423020.308890.1395380.4438470.2140130.3214660.315244Green managed
y0.347520.6417580.0512470.5382490.317740.1572370.32946User 2 with color +2
Y4.0347812.680970.96758917.04991914.8879376.74593517.307434
Y percent0.2331241010.7326892020.0559059770.9851211330.8602047540.38977095
Error from REC 709
L Error4.1%1.0%-12.2%2.4%3.5%14.0%
S Error-4.6%8.2%6.5%14.7%10.0%-2.4%
H Error4.3%-3.2%-1.9%-2.3%9.3%0.4%
Y target based on existing primaries
Y Target0.2421647540.6933656540.0644695910.9355304090.7578352460.306634346
Error from Custom Gamut
L Error-0.6%1.9%-7.6%2.0%4.8%11.2%
S Error0.0%0.0%0.0%3.8%3.0%0.5%
H Error0.0%0.0%0.0%1.3%5.2%1.5%
 
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