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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
"Satellite and Cable TV Industries Announce Support for DVI (Digital Visual Interface) in New HDTV Set-Top Boxes "


"Beginning next year, all DIRECTV-licensed consumer electronic manufacturers will begin to incorporate a DVI connector with high-bandwidth digital content protection into new DIRECTV-enabled high definition digital set-top boxes. "


"EchoStar's DISH Network is also a proponent of DVI in its HDTV satellite TV receivers. "


Full story: http://www.directv.com/press/pressde...12,422,00.html
 

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Wow,


This is a huge announcement and definitely will affect how I advise my father who is currently in the market for an HDTV. I will just tell him that most likely in 5 years your TV will be obsolete.


So this means all new HDTV set top boxes and cable boxes have 1394 and DVI?




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All the best,

Ricardo
Sony KP-xxHS10 Zone
 

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Since the current equipment has no way to record any material, I think that your equipment is safe from being obsolete unless you try to get cable. I will bet that the current STB's will last as long as they still function. You just won't be able to record and use additional functions of the up coming STBs. I bet you will see both component and fire wire on some or all the new STBs.


Just my opinion, don't panic be glad that Hollywood now feel safe from the pirates.
 

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Quote:
So this means all new HDTV set top boxes and cable boxes have 1394 and DVI?
What I gather from the article is that the Firewire interface is for Recorders and DVI is for TVs.

But what mostly caught my attention is the statement from a Fox rep that DVI/HDCP and Firewire/5C frees the consumer from relying on "unprotected component analog technology of the past". Huh?!?


Ben


 

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IMHO this is a step forward for HDTV acceptance. I know others here will disagree but this is an issue that needed to be resolved. I would be willing to bet that you will see both analog and digital connections coexist on STB's while the newer displays will only support the newer digital connections. This would allow both to coexist and would not freeze out the early adopter. This would also allow the new digital connections to eventually replace the analog connections as early adopters upgrade and replace their current sets. I would also bet that any recording devices would only support the newer digital connections.
 

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Well, everyone expected it.


One quick comment: This alliance of content and equipment vendors had better make a press statement pronto about how they will handle "transition issues" - such as the million or two HD sets sitting on shelves all over the country right now without firewire, or they will be eating those sets.


This may be really good news, as they now will have to address very soon a transition plan. They're so busy right now celebrating this that I don't think they've thought about the impact this announcement could have on existing sales. Many manufacturers have just introduced new lines of sets, all without firewire. Should get real interesting in the next six months to a year. The upshot is we'll probably get some significant accommodations, either in terms of new STBs and, who know, possibly credits in monitors? or exemption on most material for X years.

Should be real interesting.

The new sets/STBs with HD-TIVO etc., should be really great!


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Change is coming, it is inevitable, it is not always bad, but is usually good on balance; there is nothing you can do to stop it, and waiting for the perfect technological solution is as futile as waiting for the final installment of Windows or Pentium processors; old equipment eventually becomes obsolete, but follows a well-illustrated pathway of lower utility before it reaches worthlessness (my kids are using my five-year-old formerly state-of-the-art Pentium 200MMX); no one is "out to get you", rather trends and conflicting interests cause everyone to shuttle about to keep up with the best value relationships in technology; and, most important, technology and intellectual property is getting more affordable, easier to access, and more robust, not the opposite of that! Look at the quality of HD and DVD today and its availability and price, compared with videotape and early laser disks fifteen years ago. Bucky Fuller called it "ephemeralization" and it's positively affecting everything!
 

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What is the fastest track to become a lawyer? I'd like to get something out of the suit that's coming.



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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!

Our Silent Angels

Please visit The Manny Page!
 

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I wonder if Mitsubishi will now add DVI to it's Promise Module?


I doubt Mitsubishi will stop putting a DirectTV receiver in it's set top boxes next year.


Mitsubishi previously said the Promise Module would not have DVI, only IEEE1394 and 5C.


If the new Mitsubishi set top boxes continue to offer DirectTV, they will have to have DVI. If the Promise Module does not have DVI then no current Mitsubishi HDTV set can be upgraded to work with the new set top boxes.


Therefore, I predict that Mitsubishi will have to add DVI to the Promise Module.


I also wonder if the new 2002 Mitsubishi integrated HDTV sets will have to add DVI. Currently they have three IEEE1394 connections.


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Hot
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Hot:
Mitsubishi previously said the Promise Module would not have DVI, only IEEE1394 and 5C.


Did a quick search on "DVI/HDCP" and couldn't find the answer to the following: "What is the physical interface connection for DVI and how is that different from 1394/5C? Does DVI also use a 1394-type cable and connection or is it something totally different? (Realize the protocols are different, I'm talking hardware).


 

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Seems like everyone is nervous and unhappy about the MPAA,

Dish Providers and equipment manufacturers using the power

that they rightly have. One person suggested a class action

suit to attempt to counter the situation;however,this did

not appear practical. Attorney pro bono? Against the MPAA?

Right! Ralph Nader is doing something else now. . HA!

Are their any other courses of action? Certainly Martin Luther King didn't cry out for class action but was quite

successful in his endeavor. Why not select one advertiser like the Ford Motor Company and let them know that all early

adopters are getting screwed are going to boycott

Ford and encourage everyone that will listen to do the same.

Perhaps if this hits Ford in the pocketbook they will recon-sider their advertising needs. Focus on one firm and forget fairness: exert pressure and power by any legal means!

I think it's abundantly clear that an adversarial condition exist and that if we all play fair, we'll continue to get

screwed. Where are the hackers?

It's a game of power and it will not be played fairly.

We'll probably loose, but will we do it quietly?

Any thoughts?

Hummer



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Brown Trout - 18 3/4#

You should have seen the one that got away!
 

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DVI and firewire connectors are completely different. DVI is used today in some computer monitors. I know that some MAC monitors use this connector.


Besides the physical connectors, the major difference between the two is that DVI/HDCP passes the uncompressed digital stream between the STB and the HDTV and firewire/DTCP/5C uses a compressed digital stream. In both cases, the stream can be encrypted.


Many studios like the idea of HDCP because hackers will have a much harder time recording an uncompressed digital stream than a compressed one. But for this very reason, HDCP is a poor choice for connecting an STB to HD-VCR. Firewire is much better suited for this. So what we are seeing is studios such as Sony, that are also manufacturers, like 5C. After all, they want to sell us as many gadgets as possible. On the hand, studios with no manufacturing arm, like Disney, perfer HDCP, since it gives them the greatest protection against pirates/hackers/p*ssed off early adopters.


What we are seeing is the failure of these parties to agree. Instead, they are going to throw both technologies into the market place and see which one survives. Of course, a side effect of this will be even more consumers will end up with the short of end of the stick in the form of soon-to-be obsolete equipment.
 

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I doubt you will see any STBs or HDTVs with both of 5C and HDCP connections. Sony and the other 5Cs will probably only make equipment with firewire connections. JVC and others will use only DVI/HDCP. I think this will be another Betamax vs. VHS fiasco. Which one will you "optimists" choose? I hope you choose the right one. On the hand, maybe not. Anything to wipe those optimistic smiles off your faces! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
 

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"I would be willing to bet that you will see both analog and digital connections coexist on STB's while the newer displays will only support the newer digital connections."


The DVI/HDCP license agreement specifically prohibits output of encrypted digital video in analog form. The new STBs might have analog connections, but you won't be able to view any encrypted HD content via these outputs.


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ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!
 

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Can someone point me and perhaps others who are still trying to catch up on these terms (DVI, firewire, etc.) to some good resources that explain precisely what these are, why they are, and what they do?


Since DVI seems to affect satellite and cable hdtv, I want to know how this is going to affect me personally in the future, particularly my investment in equipment and what I recommend to family and friends. Some detailed reference material, that doesn't rely on the reader having a knowledge of the other approx. 10,000 acronyms for protocols would be nice.


Something like, say, "HDTV for Dummies"? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
 

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All this worring about if we will be able to timeshift and record HDTV stuff is moot and a red herring IMO. This is purely an economics problem and if the players involved do not provide a product that customers want e.g. the ability to time shift PPV or premium channels, then they loose money. The providers will attempt to charge what the market will pay for to maximize profits. Adam Smith's hand will provide a solution to this problem.


The real issues, at least for me, is the FUD that exists regarding the state of existing DTV/HDTV equipment with component input and outputs. If what is being speculated here is true, with the advent of 5c & DVI the 1080i and 720p will be downres to 480p or i, I would be very unhappy. It appears unethical for an industry which has sold and marketed us HDTV to artificially devalue our assets without any real disclosure and smooth migration path. I hope some facts start coming out regarding what the intent of the industry is with respect to the current consumer base. My hope is that they will continue to offer the component 1080i offering. I understand how the raw digital HDTV stream could be considered an IP threat but I have a hard time understanding how the component based equipment presents any real risk as one would have to recompress and package the signal into a HD stream and that would take one really motivated crook. IMO fine make 5c and DVI equipment just grandfather our component 1080i with a transition plan over a 5 year time horizon which allows our equipment to deprecate naturally.


Regards,


Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by wirehead_rick:
Remember, The MPAA wants DVI/HDCP to be implemented in COMPUTER MONITORS as well


Most new digital monitors use the Digital DVI connector. My 21" analog monitors at work already have the analog DVI connector on them. (DVI can be analog, digital, or both depending on which pins are used). Update - my monitor actually has an EVC connector, very similiar to DVI and adaptors are available.


Many new video cards (like my Radeon) have a DVI connector - intended for use by Digital monitors.


See http://www.networktechinc.com/dvi.html and http://www.lastar.net/resources/dvi.asp?&user_id=cw for different versions of the DVI connectors.



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Quick summary - DVI is a physical connector that can carry analog or digitial signals. Firewire/IEEE1391/iLink is a bus design with a 4 wire (6 with power) connector for a variety of uses. The most popular is DV camcorders and computer HD and CDR/RW drives - most new Macs come with ports built in. Good for up to 800Mbps with extensions, think most current stuff is 200Mbs? This is not enough to carry uncompressed HDTV.


5C and HDCP are ways to control the use of the above busses. Also note that the above can be used to carry a variety of incompatably formatted data.


Compressed streams are great for recorders so they do not have to try to compress a signal (hard and expensive to get right). Also HDTV signals are transmitted highly compressed so it is stupid to take a professionaly compressed signal - uncompress - then recompress with consumer equipement.


Uncompressed streams are much easier to overlay data, guides, graphics, etc on top of the underlying video. With a compressed signal you need to uncompress, overlay, then compress again.


Firewire is compressed, DVI is not.


I think both will be used in the future. IE DirecTV STB to HDTV TiVo should be Firewire, but STB to TV should be DVI (assuming STB does transparent overlays).



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The controvery and focus should be on HDCP and 5C, not DVI vs FireWire vs Analog.


[This message has been edited by ADent (edited 07-26-2001).]
 

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Sounds like just having a DVI connector is not enough, the display device must also be able to decrypt the HDCP signal. Are their licensing fees for any of the encryption/decryption routines used in these methods? (I'm pretty certain Apple requires royalties for the use of firewire).
 

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"I understand how the raw digital HDTV stream could be considered an IP threat but I have a hard time understanding how the component based equipment presents any real risk as one would have to recompress and package the signal into a HD stream and that would take one really motivated crook."


I'm repeating myself, but it's an important point:


The implementation of copy protection on DTV transmissions has nothing to do with piracy. It is specifically intended to enforce pay-per-play and to take away the consumer's ability to exercise fair-use rights.


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ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!


[This message has been edited by dkeller_NC (edited 07-26-2001).]
 
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